Unity on Wayland

Thursday, November 4th, 2010

The next major transition for Unity will be to deliver it on Wayland, the OpenGL-based display management system. We’d like to embrace Wayland early, as much of the work we’re doing on uTouch and other input systems will be relevant for Wayland and it’s an area we can make a useful contribution to the project.

We’re confident we’ll be able to retain the ability to run X applications in a compatibility mode, so this is not a transition that needs to reset the world of desktop free software. Nor is it a transition everyone needs to make at the same time: for the same reason we’ll keep investing in the 2D experience on Ubuntu despite also believing that Unity, with all its GL dependencies, is the best interface for the desktop. We’ll help GNOME and KDE with the transition, there’s no reason for them not to be there on day one either.

Timeframes are difficult. I’m sure we could deliver *something* in six months, but I think a year is more realistic for the first images that will be widely useful in our community. I’d love to be proven conservative on that :-) but I suspect it’s more likely to err the other way. It might take four or more years to really move the ecosystem. Progress on Wayland itself is sufficient for me to be confident that no other initiative could outrun it, especially if we deliver things like Unity and uTouch with it. And also if we make an early public statement in support of the project. Which this is!

In coming to this view, several scenarios were considered.

One is the continued improvement of X, which is a more vibrant project these days than it once was. X will be around a long time, hence the importance of our confidence levels on the idea of a compatibility environment. But we don’t believe X is setup to deliver the user experience we want, with super-smooth graphics and effects. I understand that it’s *possible* to get amazing results with X, but it’s extremely hard, and isn’t going to get easier. Some of the core goals of X make it harder to achieve these user experiences on X than on native GL, we’re choosing to prioritize the quality of experience over those original values, like network transparency.

We considered the Android compositing environment. It’s great for Android, but we felt it would be more difficult to bring the whole free software stack along with us if we pursued that direction.

We considered and spoke with several proprietary options, on the basis that they might be persuaded to open source their work for a new push, and we evaluated the cost of building a new display manager, informed by the lessons learned in Wayland. We came to the conclusion that any such effort would only create a hard split in the world which wasn’t worth the cost of having done it. There are issues with Wayland, but they seem to be solvable, we’d rather be part of solving them than chasing a better alternative. So Wayland it is.

In general, this will all be fine – actually *great* – for folks who have good open source drivers for their graphics hardware. Wayland depends on things they are all moving to support: kernel modesetting, gem buffers and so on. The requirement of EGL is new but consistent with industry standards from Khronos – both GLES and GL will be supported. We’d like to hear from vendors for whom this would be problematic, but hope it provides yet another (and perhaps definitive) motive to move to open source drivers for all Linux work.

307 comments:

  1. Roland Taylor says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    +1.

    Been following wayland through phoronix and was expecting this move =). This one I like ^^!

  2. Unity on WaylandMark Shuttleworth | 9nd.pl says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    [...] mark Posted by Bez kategorii Subscribe to RSS feed [...]

  3. Joseph Smidt says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    Excellent decision! (In my opinion) I would love to be running 12.04 on Wayland. :)

  4. Allen Lowe says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    This is excellent news. I have been dreaming of a wayland-based distro for some time now. What a fantastic move!

  5. Richard Ayotte says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Great move! I’m definitely looking forward to “every frame is perfect, by which I mean that applications will be able to control the rendering enough that we’ll never see tearing, lag, redrawing or flicker” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server)

  6. Marco Diego Aurélio Mesquita says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Unity will use compiz++ right? Does it work with wayland?

  7. Mohamed Ikbel Boulabiar says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    I would like to thank you for this decision.
    Wayland still a young project, but a statement like this will help it very much.

  8. Giorg says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    You choose a difficult path… I think this will be a good move for Linux in general though. Free drivers for graphics will receive a bit more love… maybe Nouveau backed up by nVidia?

  9. mmc says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    What is Wayland? It would have helped if you added at least a link to it.

  10. Simon says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    Ok, so here’s a question – is this a runtime thing, or a compile-time thing? I assume, for example, that most gtk+ apps will be running natively on Wayland, since the toolkit supports it. But what if I log in remotely via ssh, and want to run one of those apps with X tunneling? Will the apps switch between Wayland and X backends depending on what I’m trying to run it on? Or will they be compiled specifically for Wayland, and no longer be able to run remotely?

  11. Simon says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    Expanding on my last post, I understand network transparency isn’t used by everyone – however, for some of us it’s critical functionality. In my office, being able to ssh into a server or someone else’s desktop to run development tools (e.g a gtk-based code-review tool) is vital, and losing that ability *would* be a showstopper as far as Ubuntu desktops are concerned.

  12. mark says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    There will certainly be network accessibility, just not network transparency of the display protocol itself.

  13. Unity on Wayland | Ubuntu News says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    [...] motive to move to open source drivers for all Linux work.Originally posted by Mark Shuttleworth here on Thursday, November 4th, 2010 at 9:16 pmNewsCommunityMark ShuttleworthUnityuTouch« Official [...]

  14. Yann says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    Regarding networked accessibility, I am really wondering what redhat’s SPICE will be able to achieve in that area.

  15. ethana2 says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    Ok, this is insanely awesome. Ubuntu is going to be modern from its every pixel to its very core. Exciting times. You guys rock!

  16. Diego says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:25 pm

    Simon: network transparency is beyond the scope of Wayland. You are completely free to implement wayland clients that use network protocols (not just X11: VNC, RDP, Spice…). In fact, it will possible to run X.org as a Wayland client. So, you will be able to run remote X11 apps on Wayland servers.

  17. LGrace says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    “X is Brain Dead” Jobs

  18. Mathieu Virbel says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    This is just awesome. Very very good decision, having an opengl stack without X :D

  19. JJ says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Oh God. Tell me that Ubuntu’s roadmap is not made by people who think they know the graphics stack because they read Phoronix…

  20. Jones Lee says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    One of the insanest move I’ve ever seen from Ubuntu… I am worrying about the compatibility and reliability of Wayland with X apps, especially with ISV apps. I’ll probably skip Natty release and wait for few more releases.

  21. g saramago says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    An improved and integrated Compiz + an improved Unity + uToutch + Wayland in top of a Linux Kernel… Man, I think there is something really great starting here that can be a real third path to the whole industry.

  22. W^L+ says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 11:20 pm

    Hopefully, you can work with X.org to completely port X to Wayland, too. This is the first I’ve heard of it, but if it is that good, it’d be good to have one all freedom-preserving desktops, without losing over a decade of X apps and knowledge. Plus, many of the flaws in X are only flaws because it was conceived and created in an earlier time. This could provide a do-over (with appropriate legacy emulation, of course).

  23. Max Kanat-Alexander says: (permalink)
    November 4th, 2010 at 11:55 pm

    This is great in terms of the features and quality that we’ll see in the Ubuntu desktop, but is there any concern about fragmentation people you start developing native Wayland apps? That is, unless every Linux distro and *nix version (including *BSD) adopts Wayland, developers will start to have to choose between writing for Ubuntu and writing for everyone else, if they want to write native Wayland apps, no? Or do the existing libraries (gtk2, qt) seamlessly support both X and Wayland?

    I heartily agree that network transparency of the protocol is totally unneeded in a desktop environment, though, and honestly, even in most server environments.

    -Max

  24. JohanG* says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:08 am

    “this will all be fine – actually *great* – for folks who have good open source drivers for their graphics hardware”

    I don’t really understand the above, so we who run Nvidia are f****d?

    And as to the concept of ‘good driver’ – we’re talking laptops with Intel graphics or nothing, kinda…

  25. Simon says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:09 am

    @Diego – that wasn’t the question; I know I can run an X compatibility layer on top of Wayland for running remote apps on a local Wayland desktop.

    What I need to do is the other way around. Given a local desktop running OS-of-choice, will I be able to ssh to a remote Ubuntu machine, and run GUI applications on it? Or will those applications work on Wayland only, and be incapable of running on a remote display? And if so, does this apply only to apps packaged by Ubuntu, or even to those I build from source myself using Gtk+ or Qt?

  26. Diego says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:30 am

    @Simon: Well, that depends on the toolkit…QT apps can switch to use different graphic systems (qtapp –graphicssystem raster|opengl|opengl1|x11), I suppose they will add wayland as another option. I don’t know about GTK.

  27. Chris says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:30 am

    Ok, so you’re jumping on a boat probably everyone’s gonna jump sooner or later.
    Thats no news, theres been other examples of this, eg. pulseaudio….
    Do you actually intend to pay people to work on Wayland or just providing the guinea pigs again and take whatever upstream has and add your cherry on top of it like usual?

  28. oiaohm says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:30 am

    Question is how thin of a wrapper can be built for X11 support on wayland.

    Most X11 applications interface threw xlib rare ones threw xcb. There is a chance these applications could run on wayland without a X11 server. Yes I know this project I am about to point to kinda failed. http://libw11.sourceforge.net/ but it proved the possibility it had the disadvantage of a completely different understack. wayland keeps lot of the opengl level the same.

    X11 for remote applications yes could be wise to keep around. But even so X11 for remote opengl driven don’t work either. virtualgl is kinda required for remote opengl.

    Simon. QT the applications require to be no binary difference for X11 or Wayland. For memory usage and speed of startup alterations to the ld.so system would be advisable possibly altering what libs one option is this being based on the cgroup that systemd provides the user. Ie X11 version of lib QT loaded if remote Wayland version local. The session cgroup systemd does tells can tell the difference between a local and remote user. Speed of startup you don’t want to have QT probing to findout if it has wayland or X11. You want it to attempt the correct one straight up.

    Now if someone has not followed QT/Opengl ways and has reached out to X11 directly for some reason from a QT application that one will break. But really when using QT you want cross platform so doing something like that is bad prac anyhow.

    GTK/Gnome I am not too sure on there policy of reaching out to X11.

  29. gorlok says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:41 am

    Great move! Kudos for this. It’s risky, but I like it. Great news.

  30. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:50 am

    @Chris, my opening paragraph is quite clear, our work on touch and the input system is likely to be a place we can contribute to Wayland.

  31. Linux Rants » Blog Archive » Interesting Linux News for the Day – November 5, 2010 says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:24 am

    [...] Unity on Wayland [...]

  32. Sam Spilsbury says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:27 am

    Just to clarify – a compiz based unity on Wayland is also possible. The new architecture in 0.9 makes it easy to split all the X11 stuff out of core and into plugins.

  33. Claudio says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:51 am

    News, news, news and again news! Ubuntu is now like Fedora … but much much better! I like the way Ubuntu is evolving. i’m gonna buy some shirts and a few gadgets to support the Ubuntu project. I do not claim that Ubuntu 11.04 is very stable, I know that this is a process of transition. I see every day the future of Ubuntu and Linux brightest .

  34. Ubuntu moving away from X? – OO-Dragon's Blog says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:24 am

    [...] interesting move Here. I’m all for moving things forward, so it will be interesting to see how this goes. I like [...]

  35. Christopher Denter says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:28 am

    I like your unconventional style of thinking.
    I like it that you try new things. This is what probably has to be done.
    I’m speaking as a developer familiar with HCI, GL, OSS and Ubuntu.

    I haven’t dived into this precise scenario, but I’m sure you’re way more intelligent than most people will think you are when doing this move.

  36. Grahame says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:45 am

    Brilliant! I’m ecstatic that X11 is going to go away, with compatibility; much like Quartz and X11.app on MacOS. It’ll be wonderful to be building apps on a solid foundation, instead of bodging on top of the ancient X stuff.

    Sounds much more useful than I’d thought the shift to Unity would be, if as a side-effect a bunch of time gets dumped into improving Wayland.

  37. Wayland, se avecinan más cambios en Ubuntu, aunque probablemente a largo plazo « Soft-Libre says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:03 am

    [...] Fuentes: FayerWayer | Tuxbelito | Mark Shuttleworth [...]

  38. Dylan McCall says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:09 am

    Really glad to see this kind of cleanup. X’s network transparent model has been slowly wilting and it’s time to push it off by default. It was a great idea back when it was just X, but now a GUI application involves a lot more than that. I think there does need to be a solid alternative people can employ, though. Maybe a consistent way for applications to provide their own HTML interfaces over the network…

    As excited as I am, I hope this whole switch is done very methodically. Good luck, and take your time! I’m sure I can stand being excited for a year or two :)

  39. Jim Raredon says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:23 am

    Looking at the future with OpenGL, I’m concerned about Linux video support from the vendors. Look no further than the new NVidia Optimus technology, which Nvidia has stated will always require Windows 7 or higher to use. While the move to Wayland is excellent in my opinion, perhaps you could use some of your pull to convince NVidia to finally offer open support? Unfortunately, I just don’t see nouveau ever truly “getting there.”

  40. Ben says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:10 am

    There are issues with Wayland, but they seem to be solveable, we’d rather be part of solving them than chasing a better alternative.

    Given Ubuntu’s history (and now, it appears, rapidly growing tendency) of eschewing or altering upstream in favor of its own half-baked design ideas (read: left-aligned buttons, windicators, Unity-as-default), your statement seems somewhat contra-indicated.

  41. Stephen Gentle says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:30 am

    @Jim Raredon – Nouveau is ‘getting there’ already. I don’t know what version ships with Ubuntu, but in the newest Fedora, Nouveau can run Compiz or Mutter flawlessly and actually pulls decent frame rates in 3D games like Nexuiz.

    There’s still a long way to go for high performance graphics such as gaming (and hopefully Nvidia does ship a kernel modesetting driver with EGL support to fill that gap) but for everything else, Nouveau is sufficient even in its current state.

  42. Unity to embrace Wayland Display Server says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 5:56 am

    [...] Wayland Display ServerBy Akshat Jain, posted November 5, 2010Share story:TweetMark Shuttleworth announced on his blog today that Unity will be embracing the X Window System replacement Wayland, the OpenGL [...]

  43. Adam Williamson says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:08 am

    “In general, this will all be fine – actually *great* – for folks who have good open source drivers for their graphics hardware.”

    Ah, starting to see where we were going with that one, huh? :)

    It’d be nice to see Canonical hire some developers for the major free graphics drivers. They could all definitely use more engineering support.

  44. Lance Wang says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:19 am

    Yes. Every important decision could be risk. And history will prove it. I love ubuntu people who have eye for future.

  45. Unity su Wayland « GNUpress! says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:41 am

    [...] le parole di Mark Shuttleworth che non si ferma per ambizione e audacia alle tantissime novità proposte all’USD tenutosi ad [...]

  46. bioinfornatics says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 7:44 am

    Wayland is devlopped since 2008 by Red Rat http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13643.
    Did you think that Canonical has enough free developer to contribute actively to the project. Or there will be some developer for bug fix ?

  47. Michael Krog says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 7:54 am

    This is absolutely amazing.

    I too have followed Wayland for some time. It’s simplicity will surely make things a lot easier.

    - Michael

  48. Benedikt says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:26 am

    While I do think this could be a good move, I’m concerned about Edubuntu LTSP deployments. Right now, they use remote X tunneling to work. What is going to happen if you switch to Wayland? Surely VNC is not an option, as it is too slow. And how are we going to do LTSP deployments with Ubuntu at work?

  49. Michael Krog says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:33 am

    Regarding Androids(hence Google) compositing system.
    Have you guys considered that Google might be developing something similar to Chrome OS behind closed doors?

    I understand they are using X in the open source Chromium OS, but considering Chrome OS should have
    its entrance before the end of this year, it looks like they are keeping a lot of info about the platform
    to them selves.

  50. Aleksey V Zapparov AKA ixti says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:34 am

    Hello,

    I’m not an Ubuntu user, it’s a great distro for most of the human beings, so seems like I’m not kind of them. ;)) But I always propose Ubuntu for the friends of mine. So that’s why I’m wondering: are you planning to replace X server with Wayland, or you going to use Wayland with X server as a backend? Please, can you reveal some more of your details/thoughts? :))

  51. Ubuntu usará Wayland Display Server con Unity | MuyLinux says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:36 am

    [...] Shuttleworth ha anunciado en su blog que Unity dejará de usar el servidor X Window tradicional de la distribución, X.org, para pasar a [...]

  52. Andrew Fenn says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:40 am

    Good to see Canonical cutting the linux API fat. After stream lining graphics and sound things are going to get very interesting in the linux space.

  53. Martin Owens says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:48 am

    @Adam and @Jim – It’d be nice if the community hired more engineering support for free drivers. Maybe a kickstarter project? The problem with leaning on Canonical to do everything is that they just can’t. Even RedHat can’t. It’s about time the community got organised.

  54. kai says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:55 am

    Hello,

    do I understand it right, that Ubuntu is moving away from offices in the direction of consumer devices?

    For me, both Unity and Wayland seem to fit there best. Will users of desktop workstations have to move away from ubuntu in the future?

  55. Ubuntu To Ditch X For Wayland says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 9:10 am

    [...] Unity In Wayland Free subscription: Subscribe RSS feed or get daily tips in your email * Click confirmation link sent in email * Don't see the email? check spam folder [...]

  56. Luris says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 9:29 am

    Ooooohhhh, yeeeeessss :-)

  57. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 10:10 am

    @kai

    No, we’re all running Unity on desktop workstations, as are our users and contributors and partners and customers, we care that the experience is fantastic there! I do think the PC world has a lot to learn from the device world, we need to be open to innovation that doesn’t originate in our own community or ecosystem.

  58. Christoph says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    @Martin: Nobody is leaning on Canonical to do *everything*, it’s about contributing *something*.

    Canonical hardly ever contributed something to X.org. At the Ubucon in Göttingen it was decided that they go for plymouth, but instead of helping to get KMS into the graphics drivers, Canonical let others do the work while their developers were spending their time on fixing things for proprietary drivers:

    “I pretty much ended up spending 100% of my time between release
    and UDS on SRU bugs (mainly for -nvidia), and still there are a number
    that could be put in.”
    taken from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2009-November/002326.html

    So obviously Canonical *does* have developer resources, but they have wrong priorities. In the end it was (mainly) Red Hat that did the work and when it was done, Ubuntu made the switch

    I seriously hope this time Canonical will do better and contribute something to Wayland.

  59. enedene says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Will proprietary nvidia/ATI drivers work in Ubuntu then? If not, then I can’t see how to use such a system.

  60. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 10:59 am

    @Christoph

    Fixing bugs that make the free software desktop “just work” for the people who use it, is an important contribution. Even if that means fixing bugs in the cases where people are using proprietary drivers – because while it may surprise you to learn this, MOST users with that hardware, do. And those users are just as important as your opinions as to what other people should do with their time and money.

    If you don’t want to use Unity, or Bazaar, or Launchpad, or uTouch, or Upstart, or any of the other unique projects Canonical leads and maintains, that’s fine. But you’re fooling yourself if you think that it’s reasonable to say that Canonical doesn’t contribute, or that the contributions of any other company are morally superior. Everyone scratches their itch, everyone works on the things they are inspired by or earn money from or have a strategic interest in.

    It would be easy to find things to pick on our competitors about. But that’s not our style. And I don’t think it’s a style which helps the open source movement grow. I don’t agree with many things I see in other communities, but I figure it’s better to let them move forward with the things they are interested in, than whine at them to think the way I do. You might want to consider whether statements like yours are justifiable and appropriate.

    Mark

  61. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:00 am

    @enedene

    I’m sure you won’t be left out. The major vendors want Linux to work well with their hardware, mainly because there are lots of systems being built with their hardware that run it. They will figure out a strategy to help you and other users. Your best approach is to find a way to tell them you run Linux and Ubuntu and that’s important to you in your buying decisions.

  62. Ubuntu userà Wayland al posto di Xorg. Gli strisciano. | pollycoke :) says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:11 am

    [...] e dando così effettivamente vita ad un controverso fork di GNOME.Non pago, adesso ha pensato bene (post di turycell) di leggere nei miei pensieri e nella roadmap di Nokia e anticipare tutti: farà [...]

  63. Yuri says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Ehi Mark, you could create “wubuntu”, an experimental distribution with wayland, only for testers, not for end-users, in order to get bug reports. And when all is fixed, wubuntu will become ubuntu.

  64. Rob says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Excellent decision, Wayland is exiting!

  65. shishimaru says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:33 am

    I’m definitely cheering for you people of Canonical! I love the way you use to act! Wish you luck!

  66. oliver says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Oh well… I’m _really_ wondering what system I’ll install on my moms laptop when Lucid support ends. Looks like I can choose between several rocks and hard places to get stuck:
    - Ubuntu LTS with Unity and Wayland and other new stuff, which by then will probably leave owners of El-Cheapo laptops (read: everything besides “Dell Mini 9″) out in the rain
    - Fedora, which AFAIK has no focus on long-term stability
    - RHEL, which AFAIK has no focus on good desktop experience
    - Windows, which includes all the malware worries, and where I don’t have enough experience for providing help
    - OS X, which requires new hardware

    Come to think of it, maybe by then it’s time for new hardware anyway; and frankly I’m really leaning towards Mac now, which might be expensive but at least delivers reliable stuff. Seeing the way Ubuntu goes, I think particularly the reliability will be going even further down when it should go straight up instead.

  67. stenny says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    how have all of you failed to notice that wayland is a dead project?

  68. TGM says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    @Stenny:

    How is wayland a dead project? They’ve just moved to freedesktop.org?

    http://wayland.freedesktop.org/

  69. Zereal says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    Dear Mr. Shuttleworth.
    Being longterm KDE user, I feel some concern about your words: “We’ll help GNOME and KDE with the transition, there’s no reason for them not to be there on day one either.”

    What that really means?

  70. patrick quinn says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    This is great news. Its the biggest shift in .nix for a good 8 years. My opinion is the more that ubuntu moves away from the constraints of linux the better and will result in a lightweight, fast, stable OS which doesnt feel like its in constant beta (the trade off you make for not being horribly outdated like say red hat or debian stable)

    My advice. Fork Linux and the various components. Pull an apple. You will have more control and end up with an OS thats consistent and dosnt require and extra half gb or ram every time theres a new release (just because Microsoft do it dosnt mean it should be the norm)

    So Mark its time to do what you where born to do. Make linux a serious player instead of the third choice option that linux has always been.

  71. Flopsy says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    Oooh,
    Wayland: Lightweight with lots of Bling and will run on all devices…
    A bit like the OS found in StarTreck which scales across all platforms.
    Good Times ahead!
    Cheers
    Flopsy

  72. enedene says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    @mark
    I agree and I do buy hardware that works well with Linux, that is how I choose. But if nVidia and ATI don’t work, than there’s really no solution to a problem but to use another distribution.
    Please don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that you should be hostages of other firms lack of interest I welcome your move if that will improve usability. I also welcome the strength of Ubuntu team to make the more radical moves I only hope that it will not bounce back, because for example, having 3d acceleration at top level is a must for a modern operating system.

  73. Jan says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    So will Canonical be contributing to Wayland? Historically Canonical hasn’t contributed to any great extent to X are you now committing to change that approach or just ship Wayland if others mature the project?

  74. François-Denis Gonthier says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    @stenny Wayland is not dead, it’s just not really usable yet:

    https://twitter.com/#!/hoegsberg/status/336143870595072

    I’m a bit baffled by this decision to move to Wayland. I’ll keep my opinion to myself until I have more details.

  75. wishi says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    As it is now:

    * there’re no useable OpenSource drivers for Nvidia or ATI, neither are there serious attempts of contribution
    * if Wayland ever works (I doubt that for many reasons) the only way to get X11-forwarding is via an X11 client?
    * and what’s with the changes at Xorg itself. Adding another layer isn’t necessarily the best design decision.

    Instead of focusing on immature projects Ubuntu should concentrate on Xorg and the Kernel. Especially the fact that HAL grows into Xorg is something that needs to be countered immediately.

  76. johndd says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    is a necessary long term move and amazing news keep on that path!!!(while improving 3d drivers don’t forget wayland doesn’t do any rendering)

  77. UnixBased.pl | Blog | Ubuntu Unity ciągle ulepszane. says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    [...] Shuttleworth ogłosił wczoraj na swojej stronie, że nowe Unity zamiast starego X.orga będzie korzystało z rozwiązania RedHata o nazwie Wayland. [...]

  78. Ben B. says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    @stenny: Doesn’t look dead to me:

    http://cgit.freedesktop.org/wayland (commits happening fairly often, and fairly recently)

    Looks like only a few people are working on it, though.

  79. Jose says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 1:56 pm

    Congrats for facing one of the primary problems of Linux, X should die. It’s has given a good service but it is completely bloatware, unmaintained, even with the changes on modularity. We need a superfast,efficient, lean graphic system, easy to modify, and small.

    X tries to do too much things, and is not good at anyone in particular. As a former programmer of Xlib, I hate it, the design is badly made. Hey, it was the first serious graphic server, designed by committee, they didn’t really new what was going to be important for the millions of users that didn’t exist yet.

    The graphic networking system doesn’t work well, I have been using X remotely only using simple colors, and is impossible to use a program that is not static, like a 3d program, and even with that all kinds of glitches appear. The right solution should be programs being easily split into the computational part and the graphic part and send only data, not sending static images of the screen. That is, create a framework for programs like blender to send their data over the net and receive it back once processed to display. Not sending static images that needs huge bandwidths(uncompress)or are just ugly and with time lag(compressed). We are talking about sending millions times less data.

  80. Geek De France.fr » Wayland à la place de X pour Ubuntu says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    [...] : http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 Vous avez aimé cet article? Peut-être voudrez vous lire ceux-ci :Superbe fan-film publicitaire de [...]

  81. Joe Burnett says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    It’s a risky venture, that’s for sure. While it might be the best technological decision, how will this impact existing users and developers? Best of luck in the new venture! Can’t wait to try it out!

  82. Ubuntu impiegherà Wayland con Unity, promessa di Mark! « Crismon's Blog says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    [...] prossima sarà poi Ubuntu, di cui ha discusso proprio Shuttleworth in un articolo pubblicato sul suo blog, nel quale si discuteva su Unity su [...]

  83. Unity switching to Wayland | Marc and Rasmus Blogging says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    [...] switching to Wayland Posted on November 5, 2010 by Marc Dam On November 4 Mark Shuttleworth announced that Unity will switch from using X to using the Wayland display [...]

  84. Joe Burnett says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    …and no, that’s not spam. I’m alive!

  85. xfuser4 says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Mark, it was the best decision ever, that you are switch from the CEO to the technical work on Ubuntu!

    Your decisions and postings of the last month are really inspiring! I left Linux half a year ago to MacOS, because of the lack of a real vision (Gnome Shell didn’t deliver me the impression of something visionary). It was a hard decision, after using Linux for 12 years – but for me, Linux lost somehow the feeling of a modern operating system: it had too much technologies from the 1990s and 1980s, like X11, GTK+ and gcc. And the only thing I saw, were people trying to fix these 90′s technology to work in 2010.

    However the decisions to start over with a new Desktop environment and a new display server, is visionary. And perhaps, I will switch back to Linux in 1-2 years (since Apple isn’t visionary any more as they proved with the boring keynote for OS X 10.7 :-)).

    From a technical point of view, the switch to Wayland might be difficult. It might bring a worse user expierience in the beginning, since not all parts of Wayland are as mature, as X11. Probably talking with the authors of proprietary drivers might be problematic. On the other hand: if it is done, it will free Linux from one of the most wierd and complex subsystems!

    From a developer point of view: I like this decision even more. Writing programs for X11 is a cruelity. Writing programs for GTK+ without Vala is a cruelity (and with Vala its still a last century programming model). So if X11 moves out, only one cruelity stays…

    However, please keep your courage to throw out old stuff from the Linux ecosystem. It’s great to see, that Ubuntu is something different to the other distributions! If some old UNIX grey beards are whining: just ignore them! They can still use other distributions. Making Ubuntu great from *customers* is a good idea.

    (And what about using flattr to make some money? :-))

  86. Bill Dudley says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    My telecommuting depends on being able to run X apps on the machines at work and seeing the output on my workstation
    at home. Looks like when support for Lucid ends, I’ll be moving to some other distribution. As @oliver says, there
    aren’t many good choices.

    @mark, will Xubuntu continue to exist and to use X and Xfce?

  87. Dmitri Minaev says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Do you want to stop Ubuntu being Linux? By losing the advantages of UNIX, Ubuntu will gain nothing that would make it equal to Windows or MacOS.

    If there’s anything in Linux that makes it better than alternatives, it is what these alternatives lack. Network transparency is one of those things. X resources database is another.

  88. Android OS news » Ubuntu Dumps X For Unity On Wayland says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    [...] to recommend Ubuntu as an operating system. Shuttleworth said, ‘We’re confident we’ll be able to retain the ability to run X applications in a compatibility mode, so this is not a transition that needs to reset the world of desktop free software. Nor is it a [...]

  89. Lucas Weeks says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    Thanks, Mark. I get excited about Ubuntu *precisely* because you folks are willing to make tough, forward-looking decisions that benefit end-users of your ecosystem (developers and users). Keep it up!

  90. Bob says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    This is a seriously challenging gamble, I really hope you’ve looked into the nitty gritty of this. Get it weong and ubuntu will go belly up. Losing the network transparency is likely going to loose you a lot of advanced users, users that often provide technical support for free.

  91. Gabor Racz says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    I admit I do not understand fully the technical details, but somehow I feel that Mr Shuttleworth will soon match some Mr Jobs, but the former is much nicer guy.
    A humble question: does a small donation really matters for the Ubuntu project?

  92. decentralist says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    I hope I do not have to be dependent on Nouveau in a move to Wayland. Ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10 boot straight to a black screen with no warning on an Nvidia NVS 3100 due to Nouveau. The forums provide a way around Nouveau so that you can actually use Ubuntu, but I couldn’t recommend these versions to people with recent Nvidia hardware.

  93. Hypatia says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    I guess the next move will be to replace bash with a powershell clone. Sigh.

  94. Tim Keitt says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    I currently can do real work on my Ubuntu servers in Texas while on sabbatical in Spain using NX compression (employing Google’s server and NoMachine’s client). Remote NX desktop sessions are remarkably smooth over high latency connections. I could care less about 3d effects for serious work. The move away from X concerns me greatly.

  95. Mårten says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    So what you are saying is that Ubuntu in six-twelve months will be for Intel netbooks or other Intel computers?
    So me sitting here with an AMD processor and an Nvidia graphicscard will have no use of Ubuntu in the future?

  96. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:50 pm

    @Zereal
    Qt is already being ported to Wayland. There is no reason that a KDE app might not “just work” on Wayland when we start making it available as an option. It will take work, but if KDE upstreams want to take on the challenge, they’ll be able to work with us on that.

  97. bzhb says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    It sounds like Ubuntu and MeeGo are both going in the same direction on that subject (MeeGo will also use wayland in the future). Did you talk with Intel and Nokia on this subject ?

    Anyway it is good news ! Hopefully we will see a big improvement in linux graphics.

  98. Adam Williamson says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    bioinfornatics: the lead Wayland developer, Kristian Hogsborg, doesn’t work for RH any longer, he works for Intel, so in that sense you can say that right now it’s Intel that’s developing Wayland.

  99. Adam Williamson says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Martin: I don’t disagree; what I’m talking about here is an approach you can use here that’s simple as long as you don’t mind spending the money: just hire the community people. This is how RH contributes to Nouveau. We picked one of the lead volunteer developers of Nouveau, Ben Skeggs, and hired him full-time to carry right on working on Nouveau. AFAIK that’s his job description: just hack on nouveau, and RH pays the bills. The only added work is packaging it for RH and Fedora.

    It’d be great for Canonical to do the same: pick up some nouveau and radeon (particularly) developers and give them a paycheck. It just allows them to devote more time to the project (also they can buy test cards and monitors and whatnot on expenses, and have access to any other test hardware lying around within the company).

    Of course, improved community contribution to the drivers would also be awesome, you’re right there. It is something which requires quite a lot of knowledge, of course.

  100. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    @Tim

    It’s highly unlikely that the default Ubuntu install in a year will be on Wayland. It’s possible that there will be versions of Ubuntu that use it, or proof-of-concept images, by then. More importantly, we won’t make it the default until it really is widely supported and supportable, by folks using a wide variety of hardware providers. And as for network connectivity, there’s sufficient time between now and then for these problems to get solved.

    And finally, you’ll still be able to host an X application on a Wayland desktop in Spain. It will feel a little old, perhaps, because everything else on your machine in Spain will be crisper, but you’ll still be able to do it.

  101. Jim says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    The problem is that 3rd-party software, that depends on openGL, will not work as I understand it. This goes from proprietary graphics drivers like nvidia to engineering analysis software. So, this likely will be the end of my Ubuntu experience, which started at the beginning. I go back to Debian.

  102. cyrildz says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    I love the way Ubuntu is going, I’m an Ubuntu user and Meerkat and Lucid are greats :) .
    would not it better , as already suggested, to have a special distribution for testing use ? Your decision is a great one. But please, let consider creating a special distribution for testing purpose uniquely.

  103. inetpro says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    As always, never a dull moment. I’m excited and look forward to huge improvements in the coming years. My appreciation goes to everyone involved!

  104. Ubuntu Unity moving from X.org to Wayland @ The Linkielist says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth » Blog Archive » Unity on Wayland. Software [...]

  105. Thomas Hansen says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    Awesome!! This is very exciting news indeed!

    You talk about uTouch and other input systems being relevant for Wayland and this might be something ubuntu can contribute on. Maybe this is an opportunity to think about a general input abstraction/server on top of evdev? I haven’t had time for an indepth look at Wayland yet, but from what I’ve seen the input protocol is very minimal so far.

    If wayland itself were to use a slightly higher level source than e.g. evdev to get input events many of the reasons X is becoming a problem now could be avoided later on. Of course applications do need to receive input events for the window manager because it defines the context in which they operate. But the problem the window manager needs to solve is *not* that of abstracting input and defining an input protocol/api; rather it must just route the input based on its context (in this case: different windows/regions).

    We already feel the effects of a fixed input context not being able to encapsulate the expressiveness of e.g. multi-touch. What about tomorrow, when we have advanced computer vision based input or different hardware sensors? As our interfaces evolve, the context in which events are routed to different processes will change (e.g. does a window metaphor make sense for speech input? what about hand gestures performed in front of a camera?).

    New input devices and interactions are emerging very fast, if we can avoid making toolkits and applications depend on a window manager specific protocol it will be much easier to adopt new input techniques in the future. There might be a real chance here to make the window manager a context manager, and to start thinking about an extensible input protocol; the window/context manager just decides how to route the events.

  106. Ubuntu Dumps X For Unity On Wayland | JetLib News says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    [...] to recommend Ubuntu as an operating system. Shuttleworth said, ‘We’re confident we’ll be able to retain the ability to run X applications in a compatibility mode, so this is not a transition that needs to reset the world of desktop free software. Nor is it a [...]

  107. Kevin says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    It isn’t “extremely hard” to get good performance with 3D applications in X. All one has to do is buy an NVIDIA card. I’ve been around the block with the competitors to NVIDIA, and for what I use the PC for (games), they are all garbage. One company abandons proprietary driver support in ~3 years, forcing users onto the open and slow driver, and the other only provides an open driver that struggles to play Quake 3 on my EEEPC in spite of Q3 running flawlessly in Windows on the same hardware.

    As far as I’m concerned, NVIDIA is the only *real* graphics solution on a Linux box. How would this change affect that? I doubt the NVIDIA X drivers would just work with the Wayland system, and none of the competitors’ products are up to the task of running The Dark Mod (www.thedarkmod.com) for years to come.

  108. [ARS] Ubuntu considering dropping X11... - Overclock.net - Overclocking.net says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    [...] [...]

  109. Unity to replace X.org with Wayland - Digit Technology Discussion Forum - Tech Discussion Forums in India says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    [...] to replace X.org with Wayland Mark Shuttleworth Blog Archive Unity on Wayland [...]

  110. Christoph says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    @Mark

    I agree that making hardware ‘just work’ is a desirable goal, but using proprietary drivers you will never achieve it. Your developers will just run in circles fixing issues with every new driver release. Look at http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/X/Graphs/totals.svg – does it look like an improvement?

    Making hardware just work means contribute on nouveau instead of fixing bugs with nvidia. Work on nvidia in the end helps Nvidia and encourages people to use proprietary software. If you say that most people are using the proprietary driver (do you have numbers on that?), you (may) describe the status quo but not a desirable goal. Where are your visions?

    You are asking whether my complainants about the way Canonical may or may not contribute “helps the open source movement grow”. Let me ask you this: Do you think that paying your developers to work on fixing bugs with proprietary drivers helps the open source movement grow?

    Or do you think that all the code hosted on launchpad wouldn’t exist if it had to be hosted on Sourceforge or elsewhere? I’m afraid that Launchpad just encourages people to continue living in their Ubuntu parallel universe. Why are people hosting GNOME code on launchpad and not upstreaming it to gnome.org?

    Of course my complaints are not helping – unless you change your mind and pay your people to work on projects that benefit the *whole* free software ecosystem. I really hope to see contributions of Ubuntu to Wayland, but so far ‘git log’ doesn’t list a single commit from an ubuntu* or canonical* email.

  111. Adam Williamson says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    Christoph: “If you say that most people are using the proprietary driver (do you have numbers on that?)”

    Phoronix does.

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=lgs_2010_results&num=2

    NVIDIA 3,923. Nouveau 628. (That’s better than it used to be, though, I think.)

  112. bobdobbs says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    I’m so glad to see this direction. Ever since I started using linux way back in ’97, I’m been hoping/dreaming/crying that X would just die, only to see my hopes crashed time and again (remember the berlin project/fresco?).

    I’ve been using a mac as my main development box, simply because of OSX having a much better windowing system. Looks like I may be coming back to Ubuntu as my main dev box for the next release–yay!

  113. jgm says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    Whoa, this is really cool, I guess this will bring a smoother gaming, video, multimedia experience, so I wish company’s as nvidia and ati start riding the horse and make adjustments to the drivers to support this movement when the time comes. I just love the idea of having a more responsive and modern visual environment. Also this move should give game developers more reasons to develop for linux. Actually running games as quake live over X feels smoother than windows xp (with nvidia card), so I can’t wait to see how it goes on wayland :-P.

  114. wanda says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    U kunt beter eerst zorgen dat het geluid in Ubuntu goed werkt want dat is een ramp met jullie Pulseaudio en Alsa.
    Later kunt u de rest aanpakken.
    Elke distro wordt er veranderd maar de andere zaken worden niet eerst te goed afgemaakt.

  115. Diego Viola says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Please use Wayland and help advance Linux graphics.

  116. André Gondim » Unity com Wayland says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    [...] Blog do Mark Shuttleworth e [...]

  117. nona says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    If you look at the X stack in a post-KMS world, you realize a lot of what used to be in xorg has been pushed down or out. Now, considering you’re still going to provide compatibility with X, what are the actual advantages of going Wayland? It seems you’re going to throw out a lot of cool features in xorg (network-transparency, multi-head, multi-seat, MPX, etc), and gaining… what exactly?

    Well, I’m not going to complain too much because it’ll likely force vendors to provide better KMS and 3D support. But I’ll probably be on Xorg for a while still, because unlike with for example MacOSX I can just ssh -X to my different machines and run any apps on my screen, something I still use daily.

  118. Frank Arnold says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Mark, this is a good move. I see that network transpareny is not needed for a desktop OS or for other smaller devices. There we need top graphic, multitouch etc. People can still use X11 on top of Wayland or replace it with X11 if they cannot live without it.

    Btw. the discussion to replace X11 is old since the middle of the nineties. Would be great to see something in the middle of 2011.

  119. Fredrik Rambris says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:11 pm

    Maybe now GNU/Linux can now be as fun to use and tinker with as AmigaOS was back in the nineties.

  120. Gosha says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    Mad Props, no doubt Unity along with upcoming Wayland will be a breakthrough step of Ubuntu toward desktops. Likely the previous shell will be available in the form of Gubuntu or something like that next release.
    We love Ubuntu, Greetings from Russia :)

  121. Heiko says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Thats really thrilling news!
    As an enthusiastic user of kubuntu I am especially interested in the KDE-side of that matter.
    Since KDE is already cross-plattform I thought in my naivity that with an working Qt-port all KDE-Apps should run automagically…
    Once Qt is ported to wayland – which efforts will there be left to get a complete KDE running? will there mainly settings and systemtools to be written for wayland? or will kwin to be extended? maybe plasma?…

    @Mark
    how will the help in this transition for KDE you were talking about look like?

  122. Denny says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    My three-screen, two-card set-up has been broken in various ways since I upgraded away from Ubuntu 8.x – 9.x had a version of Xorg that refused to recognise the second card at all, and 10.x has a version that will recognise both cards but refuses to join the displays up without crashing out horribly, so I have to run each monitor as a separate X server. Turns out a three-screen desktop is a lot less useful when you can’t move things between the monitors!

    Is Wayland going to make this kind of multi-device set-up easier or harder to run? Is it targetting in on the main single/twin desktop use-case even tighter, or will it offer me good 3D support for the first time since I bought my third monitor?

  123. mark says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    @Christoph

    It’s a fallacy to think that open source drivers are bug free, either, or that they trend in only one direction. “Make the machine work” is the mission. For reference, we recently had a really hard time with a lot of very popular graphics hardware with open source drivers. C’est la vie. Not their fault, not incompetence or malice, it’s just that software is software, it has bugs. Users can expect us to work for *them*, not solely for our own ideology.

    In Ubuntu, we accepted at the start that our preference for open source drivers did not outweigh the need for the user to experience free software apps in the first place. That was a balanced decision. We’ll get the world to care about free software by getting it widely used, that creates the market demand that justifies the scale of investment hardware manufacturers need to do proper drivers, and do them openly.

    I’ve seen this happen with my own eyes: working with hardware companies in Linaro, who have substantial Linux engineering but feel its easier for them to do it internally, to their own pace, and often with proprietary code, than it is to work with upstream trunk. To get over that hump you have to deliver the promise of huge volume. They are simply not interested in ideology or the idea that “open is easier” – for them, open is definitively *harder*, and if you don’t appreciate that you are not in a good position to argue the case.

    So yes, I absolutely feel that Ubuntu needs to work even if the hardware manufacturer has only shipped a blob. I don’t like it. But it’s a challenge we accept. That gets us in the door, and once in the door, we are unequivocal about the benefits of working with trunk. Again, looking at the results in Linaro, we’ve helped move a lot of kernel development in a big, fragmented ecosystem in the right direction. Because they care what we say. Because we made it work. And that’s how we’ll move the world to free software faster.

  124. "He's a rebel and a runner. He's a signal turning green..." says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    The last few months, all of my contemplations regarding Ubuntu and the new direction you (and others) seem to be taking it have come down to one question:

    What are you building, now?

    As a user, I already have a computer that ‘just works’; It’s a mac. I chose to run Linux on it because I see computers only as tools to access information/knowledge. Knowledge, I also believe, is a human right that should be as accessible as possible to everyone. That is only one of the many reasons, that no one seems to consider, why non-technical users choose to run Linux. You assume we just want more candy, but we can get that from competing operating systems with, sorry sweetie, much better marketing and presence. We want responsibility. For this reason, I believe Christoph and others are justified in their ‘criticisms’ and should be noted as helpful harbingers rather than have lines drawn in the sand for them. I’ve mentioned before how I think the Ubuntu community appears to be dangerously insulated, this weakness appears to be getting worse. To the average non-techie, Ubuntu is the face of Linux and what you present is what we interpret it as. They are more than justified (although they could be more tactful) in being concerned about your motives and how it will reflect back on them.

  125. Ubuntu deverá usar Wayland como servidor gráfico « TechNow says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    [...] que eles possam utilizar o máximo do servidor gráfico. Se você quer saber mais sobre a notícia, clique aqui e visite o blog de Mark Shuttleworth (em inglês) ou clique aqui e visite a página oficial do [...]

  126. Jean-Marc Liotier says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    I guess it is too early for a clear answer, but I’m worried about the impact of such move on LTSP whose architecture currently entirely depends on X. In a previous comment (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551#comment-339167) Benedikt asked the same question – LTSP is important on markets such as education. I hope that such users won’t be left out in the cold with their X applications considered legacy while the world moves on with native Wayland applications that they won’t be able to run remotely.

  127. Gabe says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 7:59 pm

    @mark,

    Just wanted to say that while I have moved to Debian to avoid the Canonical-designed notification indicators and other desktop changes I don’t like, I am impressed with the risk you are taking here.

    Please do it right. You’ve said that this is a long-term transition, and I appreciate that. Wayland is a project with a lot of potential, but it relies on so many external components working well.

    The single biggest criticism I’m seeing is the ‘oh no, no more network transparency’ thing. If Canonical were to take the position that a optional but functional X-compatible networking layer would be a component of a Wayland-based Ubuntu release, you’d go a long way to dealing with the griping. I seem to remember Wayland demos showing a full X server running as a layer on top of Wayland.

    I will certainly be following this with interest. Please don’t forget us thin-client folk, and please coordinate with your Debian upstream.

    You are shaking things up a great deal, but this change strikes me as interesting and necessary, unlike your choice to treat GNOME as a platform rather than a project producing a Desktop.

    Good luck.

  128. Aaron says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    I look forwards to seeing the release of Unbuntu that incorporates Wayland. However I have one concern. Will there be 3D support for nvidia and ATI cards be in-place in time? Otherwise we will be in for a very poor experience.

    It would probably be prudent to support the open source driver projects as much as possible in terms of development and testing to ensure that if there are no proprietary driver support there will be good open source drivers.

    Ubuntu has brought a lot of good to the Linux community, but this change in particular requires testing and development to be successful.

  129. Christoph says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    @Adam

    I doubt that Phoronix represents the majority of users. It’s a website about benchmarks for people, who want to tweak the hell out of their machine, users who use Linux for gaming etc. No wonder nvidia is so high there. We could do the same on smolts.org and I’m pretty sure it would show us a majority of nouveau users.

  130. Daniel Cardenas says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    Thanks for the excellent architectural decisions!

  131. paulo silva says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    talking about ‘old’ hardware, i hope Canonical will not kill Lubuntu and Xubuntu, or bloat them with Wayland as well… :|

  132. Jordan says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    It will be interesting to see how well Wayland fares as it was only announced as a project in 2008 – 2 years vs. how many for X? I’d say the compatibility layer for X apps better be rock solid!

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server%29

  133. Adam Williamson says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    “We could do the same on smolts.org and I’m pretty sure it would show us a majority of nouveau users.”

    We couldn’t, really, as it doesn’t track usage over time, and the most common point at which to report your machine to Smolt is just after install (because that’s when you get prompted), when you will inevitably be running nouveau as you haven’t had time to install nvidia yet.

    (I’m not actually sure if Smolt even tracks what driver is in use.)

  134. dan says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    That’s great news. More graphic servers are good for Open Source community.

    I was looking for a OSX desktop experience on Linux for a long time (smooth&fast graphics).

  135. toni says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    Perhaps today problem with linux desktop is not X. It’s all about programs.
    Mac OS X is beautiful, but it’s not so used because is beautiful; indeed, it has a lot of programs: Photoshop, Autocad,… and so on.
    Perhaps this is not a problem that ubuntu can resolve (neither other distro).
    But I repeat: desktop use are native powerfull programs, not real-time animations that doesn’t do nothing.

  136. Jef Spaleta says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    @Adam.

    No Smolt does not profile kernel modules in use.

    To see what the report looks like without sending it use this command:

    smoltSendProfile -p

  137. Diego Viola says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 10:00 pm

    @mark

    With all the respect that you deserve. Will you invest funds in making this transition faster? When we could start to see Ubuntu with Wayland?

    Thanks for having the guts to take decisions like this to improve the state of the Linux graphics, Wayland is more than needed for Linux to succeed on the desktop, and I congratulate you for your decision.

  138. Andrea Matesi says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    That’s THE news!
    Finally someone with the guts for a fresh new start, willing to fix this much-needed GUI feature.

  139. Alanna says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    compatibility is crucial to me, as is network transparency. while the only system i admin are my own and my roommate’s, i do run x apps via ssh over the network.

    i also question the need to reinvent the wheel; x.org is already pretty awesome, and extensions to it’s functionality can be implemented by way of add-in modules. perhaps x could benefit from a loadable module system, ala the kernel?

    unless wayland is extensively tried and tested, and has network transparency, i would immediately attempt to switch back to x.org for the compatibility and protocol i require. sorry, but i need a system that meets my needs my way, without forcing me to adapt to someone else’s way.

  140. Andydread says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:42 pm

    Mark. I salute your very brave decision to go where no man has been before. One thing I plead from a business perspective. Please please please give a high priority to a very fast and efficient remote desktop capability in this new direction we are going in. Its exciting. We really need an efficient way to connect to our desktops and also to help the elders when we switch them to Ubuntu. I hope the move to Wayland facilitates a fast and efficient remote desktop for Ubuntu once and for all. This is exciting.

  141. Ubuntu Gandeng Wayland Tinggalkan X.Org « GudangLinux says: (permalink)
    November 5th, 2010 at 11:53 pm

    [...] dari distro Ubuntu Mark Shuttleworth mengungkapkan lagi rencana barunya. Kali ini, sebagaimana dijabarkan di blognya, ia mengunkapkan rencananya untuk mengganti display server dari saat ini X-Server [...]

  142. Nu says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 12:01 am

    The ones that succeed in history is the ones that are brave, try new things and look forward.
    Congrats Mark, Linux (and Ubuntu) is moving forward in a way it never would have done with the radical steps taken in almost every other release. This can only be GREAT!

  143. A new core GUI for Ubuntu | pwrusr.com says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 12:23 am

    [...] to the upcoming Gnome Shell, with its latest blog post, he added that, in the coming years, the Ubuntu GUI will be modeled over the Wayland display server (a promising alternative to the omnipresent X Server), with the ambitious goal (over the long [...]

  144. Adam Williamson says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 12:32 am

    Andydread: “Mark. I salute your very brave decision to go where no man has been before.”

    That would be aside from Meego, and the people who are actually developing Wayland? So it’s going where no man has been before in much the same way as Columbus discovered America? :)

  145. Ben Bucksch says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:24 am

    Thanks, Mark, for taking this bold move away from X11. At first, I was shocked, but if done well, this could be a real service to Linux. The idea of Linux and Unix is modularity: The kernel, the POSIX base userland and libc, the graphical display, the widget library, the apps are all one layer on another and to some degree independent from each other. You can use Linux kernel or BSD kernel. GNU userland on Solaris kernel. X.org or a proprietary X server. GTK or Qt, GnuCash or KMoney.

    However, when you want to innovate and e.g. create Fresco [1], you notice it’s not that modular after all. Even if you were willing to rewrite some apps, the graphic drivers are tied to X11 and a real problem. Esp. because they are proprietary.

    If you break this open, by making sure GTK+ and Qt work on a different system (OK, they already work on Windows, so they are already somewhat portable), and by making sure that there are 3D- and HD-video-capable open-source device drivers that can be used in other non-X11 systems, you are helping the Unix system a lot. You make it possible for others to innovate in parallel systems.

    I think what you do is feasible, too. Most apps base on GTK+ and Qt, so if you cover those, you have many apps. nouveau, radeon and co need to work well, also on newest chipsets. If you make sure of that, instead of putting the burden on the open-source community, you do us all a very good service and are to be commended for the boldness and willingness to put in the work.

    Thank you!

    [1]
    http://web.archive.org/web/20080418183521/http://www.fresco.org/
    http://web.archive.org/web/20080522171453/www.fresco.org/architecture.html
    http://web.archive.org/web/20080418183521/http://www.fresco.org/screenshots.html

  146. rec9140 says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:25 am

    Afraid this is the start of the end for *bunutu land…

    Your downstream distros are already looking for new bases… cough Mint cough… this will just push them over the edge.

    X and XDMCP via SSH is critical as is support for real graphics systems, NVidia. I don’t want to hear nouveau unless by some weirdness I were to ever go back to canada. You can keep that pile of trash driver! I use AMD processors, and NVidia video, period. No intel, no ati allowed! I use only the drivers produced by the OEM. Open source or closed sourced, or binary blob doesn’t concern me.. FREE is FREE is FREE (no cost!)

    If your not using X and my downstream distro KMint is not using X then I am moving on to another Debian based distro.

    Visionary moves are sometimes hard to see, but this move is nothing close to visionary, unless your trying to kill off the *buntus and their downstreams…hmmmm….

    Lets review the last “visionary move” of pulseaudio.. I think most know how that went .. FAILURE.

    This does nothing to help Linux adopotion on the corporate/enterprise desktop or the home desktop.. it just serves to fragment things more and cause more problems.

    X has been around for so long and is the BASIS for every other GUI system out there past and present!

    Long live X! Long Live KDE!

  147. Ian says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:30 am

    Seems to be mainly posturing is there anything being committed to this project by canonical?

  148. Ubuntu Dropping Xorg? Fedora 14 Release, LG Android Tablet, Honeycomb for Tablets | This Week In Linux says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:42 am

    [...] 2.6.37-rc1 Kernel Is Here; Can Build Without BKL Red Hat not worried about Ubuntu Unity for Linux Unity on Wayland Stormy Peters leaves the GNOME Foundation to join Mozilla Google Chrome 9 Released for Developers [...]

  149. wanganpei says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 3:05 am

    Unity layout ugly, you need to beautify!

  150. toobuntu says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 3:11 am

    My short list are making things like these: virtualbox-ose-guest-wayland (I hardly think we can count on Oracle to do this) and open-vm-toolbox-wayland / wayland-video-vmware, and an equivalent of ‘ssh -X’ for wayland. Question is whether Canonical will drive things like this forward or wait for a DD to get around to it and merge.

  151. Yaro Kasear says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 3:19 am

    I was originally going to leave a nasty comment until I saw that you delete them. A shame, because you really desperately need to read one.

    Instead, let me say that this idea is yet another major bad one for Ubuntu, like Pulse Audio and Unity were. PA broke our sound, and Unity is going to introduce a buggy user experience and in interface that’s only really appropriate for netbooks.

    Pulse Audio alone was enough to make me leave Ubuntu for Arch, because the Arch devs are, lets face it, a lot more competent than you and don’t make a lot of assumptions about what makes a good desktop experience. (Ouch, okay, I got a little nasty. Please don’t delete this comment. I’m going to be constructive, I promise.)

    Going to Wayland is a bad idea. Yes, I understand it’s new. But is that really pretty much what this decision boils down to? You want to go with Wayland purely because it is new. At least, that’s what it looks like to me.

    Okay, let’s talk about X for a second, and why it’s still the choice for UNIX and UNIX-likes (Even Quartz is based off of X as an actual fork of Xorg, but that’s not relevant here.).

    X has cruft. It’s seen a recent architecture rewrite for XGL and we ALL know it needs another rewrite or two… not to compete with Windows or OS X’s Windowing systems as, in my not so humble opinion, X has beaten the crap out of those systems for almost an entire decade now.

    Also, anyone who’s used good display drivers will tell you X itself is actually surprisingly fast despite its architectural flaws. And when it actually deploys GLX it’s probably the most visually pleasing thing we can see, while STILL managing to be fast. GLX was actually the subject of the architectural rewrite for X because AIGLX was making orphans cry.

    But, what is REALLY keeping X the de facto standard windowing system for *nix is it’s MATURE and it’s got several powerful features users of every stripe make use of. Wayland currently is still unstable, and relies on KMS, which, unfortunately, still isn’t yet supported by most drivers. I guarantee you’re going to lose a great deal of nVidia users with this change, as nv is simply a temporary 2D-only driver meant to tide one over until the real driver is acquired, Nouveau is still several years off from completion, and the proprietary nVidia driver has no KMS support. So, either they’ll have to use an unstable driver that doesn’t have even have the hardware acceleration features of the official drivers, or lose the ability to use Ubuntu correctly.

    Also, just because toolkits like Qt and GTK+ can or are ported to Wayland doesn’t mean it’ll be effortless porting of apps to it. They’re just widget toolkits and only account for part of *nix graphical apps needs that X and X, only, provides. Sure, you can provide an X compatibility layer, but there’s two sides to this issue.

    1. Providing an X compatibility layer like a Wayland-run X server/client more or less will defeat the purpose of Wayland, as, quite simply, 99.9% percent of today’s *nix apps depend heavily on not just a window system, but X as their windowing system. I guarantee just about every OpenGL game will break unless you patch them for Wayland. Any movie player will also need a LOT of work to get to work on Wayland.

    2. On the other hand, trying to get Wayland itself serve X protocols. If there’s one mistake we should learn from Microsoft is that EMULATING something else is a crapshoot unless you spend years with top engineers to get it to work.

    What I would have done in your place, Mark, was, instead of making a move that, I’m sorry, is guaranteed to break Ubuntu’s compatibility with a lot of apps, you put some engineers on making a new X implementation that desktop users can actually get excited about. Xorg is a FANTASTIC starting place for this since it’s been advancing moderately well and, well, Apple’s already demonstrated what a good Xorg fork can do with Quartz (Although when they forked Xorg to make quartz they pretty well stripped it down to its skeleton and rebuilt it into something almost completely unlike what it started as. but it still counts!).

    Someone earlier in these comments pointed out DRI as something bypassing X. This is not entirely accurate. It’s a way to get past things like xlib, but dri itself is a module of X. Your OpenGL apps that use it STILL depend on X’s abstraction to the driver. Direct rendering is not talking directly to the hardware but the driver. Things like OpenGL rely on X to identify how to talk to the driver and even WHAT the driver is. DRI simply means that it won’t waste time with stuff like xlib or other layers to do it but will use the DRI module itself for what it needs.

    Don’t reinvent the wheel, fix it. Get a nice engineering team together, fork Xorg, and turn the fork into something great, but still compatible with X apps.

  152. Ubuntu abandona X.org. - psicofxp.com says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 4:25 am

    [...] [...]

  153. Shared links from the week [Digest] November 6, 2010 | @puck's Blog says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 8:06 am

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth: Unity on Wayland [...]

  154. Anil says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 8:53 am

    Mark, funny ain’t it? the news all over the internet is that you’re **ditching** X :P

  155. Kimmo Sundqvist says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 9:06 am

    Hello

    I hope that the migration to Wayland would allow Ubuntu to do right as many things as possible. Resolution independence being one that comes to mind. But gamma correction, display calibration and color processing is another. Also, different color spaces, like Adobe RGB. And 10-bit and 12-bit color depths. And an application of handling the gamma correctly is handling the hinting and antialiasing of fonts correctly. Here’s something about it:

    http://antigrain.com/research/font_rasterization/index.html

    The whole text is a good read, but specially the part about linux and even more the sub-part about gamma correction (and its mention of colored text and inverted text). I wish maybe someone could file a bug about this, around which the solving of these questions could be centered.

  156. Komputery » Blog Archive » Wayland będzie serwerem wyświetlania Unity w Ubuntu says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:07 am

    [...] Shuttleworth, lider projektu Ubuntu, ogłosił na swoim blogu zamiar dostarczania środowiska graficznego Unity w oparciu o serwer wyświetlania [...]

  157. gus r. says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:14 am

    I’m glad that you’ve decided to move to Wayland and all, but maybe you’ve forgotten one little detail. Wayland is in alpha state right now. Who is going to fund its development? Are you wait until others get the job done for you and then claim to be innovating because of this early announcement?

    Sounds like the typical Ubuntu vaporware to me.

  158. Pete says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Mark, you mention Android.

    Is the strategy of porting of dalvik to adapt ‘the Android compositing environment’ to now use Wayland?

  159. Mandy Sauls says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    #FF #Ubuntu_OS
    The collaboration sphere of the Ubuntu ecosystem is an amazing and brilliant flux for human and technology software and hardware commercialization avenue into unexplored markets.

  160. Ubuntu Unity จะเลิกใช้ X Window เปลี่ยนมาใช้ Wayland | ข่าวไอที ข่าวเทคโนโลยี ข่าวคอมพิวเตอร์ บทความคอมพิวเตอ says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    [...] – Mark Shuttleworth, OMG [...]

  161. kikl says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    I must say, I don’t understand the move away from the x-server.

    The supposed benefits are kind of vague: “super-smooth graphics and effects”. Isn’t all this already possible on linux with the current technologies? What am I – the standard ubuntu user – missing in this respect?

    What are the disadvantages? Fragmentation of the linux desktop. Need for new drivers, applications, compatibility modus for the x-server,…..Jesus,

    I don’t really understand the tech part very well. So, I can’t say whether it’s a smart decision. What I can say is:

    This decision should be explained a little better.

  162. Ubuntu cambia X.org por Wayland para mejorar los gráficos de Unity | El Blog de Rigo says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    [...] información | Mark Shuttleworth Sitio oficial | [...]

  163. Ubuntu i stor förändring | Ubuntuportalen's Blog says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    [...] Hela inlägget från Mark Shuttleworths blogg This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. ← Databaser [...]

  164. أوبونتو سوف تترك نظام النوافذ X « أوبونتو بالعربية says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    [...] أعلن مارك مدير شركة كانونيكال أن أوبونتو سوف تترك نظام النوافذ X الذي رافق أوبونتو طوال مسيرته ، وسوف يبدلوه بنظام النوافذ Wayland كما أنه الجدير بالذكر أن أوبونتو 11.4 سوف تستخدم واجهة يونتي ، ويقول البعض بأن نظام النوافذ Wayland أفضل من X على واجهة يونتي [...]

  165. Adam Porter says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    This sounds great.

    When will basic functionality, such as copying data to USB flash and hard drives, be fixed? See this bug for an example. It’s received no official attention. It’s forcing people to switch to Windows to simply use their USB keys. How can I recommend Ubuntu to someone if copying some music to their flash drive takes days instead of minutes?

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/541937

  166. GenBeta: Ubuntu cambia X.org por Wayland para mejorar los gráficos de Unity « Peke Press says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth: Unity on Wayland (markshuttleworth.com) [...]

  167. Про вейленд. « Aceler online says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    [...] нацеленный на MeeGo, наделал много шума, когда Марк заявил, что хотел бы использовать Wayland вместо Xorg в [...]

  168. Ubuntu Yeni Sürümlerinde X Görüntü Sunucusunu Bırakıyor:Yeni Sunucu WAYLAND « AÇIK GÜNLÜK says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    [...] aslına şuradan [...]

  169. Diego Viola says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    will canonical invest in Wayland development?

  170. Diego Viola says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    What about the hardware vendors such as NVIDIA, ATI/AMD, etc. Will Canonical negotiate with them to make proprietary drivers for Wayland?

    I hope so.

  171. Dave Johansen says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    I think that this sounds nice, but network transparency is a HUGE advantage that Linux has and any change to the display manager should be sure to maintain the simplicity and efficiency of doing something like “ssh -X” over solutions like VNC.

  172. Le blog de little jo » Blog Archive » Petite leçon à PC INpact en toute liberté says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    [...] pour évaluer ce qui est dit mais je ne ferais pas confiance vu qu’il se base presque que sur le blog de Mark Shutterworth et sur phoronix. En soit ce sont des sources d’information intéressantes mais c’est de [...]

  173. Is Wayland going to replace X? - mbrmexico.com says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    [...] interwebs are full this morning of reports on Mark Shuttleworth’s announcement that someday he’d like to use Wayland instead of Xorg as Ubuntu’s primary display [...]

  174. Michael says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    In some ways, this seems to be good news… I definitely wouldn’t mind having speedups in my gaming and when running games in wine, for instance, or ease the burden of developing multi-touch (or beyond) interfaces…

    However, people like /me /depend/ upon X and its network transparency features to do our jobs. Part of my job when I am at work requires use of a simulator off of a server… So, I depend upon X on my laptop for the display. I need also to do my releases of software off of the server, and that also remote displays via X back to my laptop (tunneled via ssh).

    We have to be careful not to define this kind of application as “Legacy.” The functionality is used in truly state-of-the-art applications — relevant and necessary for a significant segment of the Ubuntu “ecosystem.”

    So, while Canonical looks to improve the Ubuntu interface, please take care not to abandon the very technologists that have been of the greatest support, evangelists, and lovers of the Ubuntu experience. If X (and X tunneled through SSH) is not _WELL_ supported on Ubuntu, no matter how much we love Ubuntu, we have to look at other options for our needs.

  175. Batuff says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 7:00 pm

    I really do not understand. Network transparency was one of the advantage of Linux display over other os as windows or osx. If this feature is stripped off, just to watch videos more seamlessy …, what is the reason to stick with Linux? If Linux tries to became as windows or osx, why I should continue to use Linux instead to go directly to use osx?

  176. Kolbjørn Barmen says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    @Yaro Kasear
    Quartz a fork of xorg?
    I thought it was an evolution of display postscript from NextStep, and nothing to do with xorg whatsoever. Citation please.

    @rec9140
    XDMCP over ssh is a really ugly hack opposed to fixing XDMCP and extend it to actually offer *secure* remote logins, something that is 15 years or so overdue – it’s quite crazy that it has not been fixed yet.

  177. dalingrin says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    @Yaro Kasear
    Don’t forget that the first TEST images are going to at least a year away. A stable distribution based on Wayland is going to 18 months to 2 years away. You make it sound like Ubuntu is changing display servers in 6 months without looking at the consequences.

    Forking X and making sweeping architectural while keeping current application compatibility sounds likes a pipe dream to me. If it were feasible then it would have been done already, whether by Apple with Quartz or otherwise.

  178. » Mark Shuttleworth vuole Unity su Wayland (prima di Nokia con MeeGo) says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    [...] Via | Mark Shuttleworth [...]

  179. uellue says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    Super-smooth graphics are not exactly my main priority on the Linux desktop. The current status quo is quite ok for me and I can really live without cool compositing effects etc. as long as videos play, 3D works and I can connect the displays I want. Well, I can see how streamlining things could improve user experience on mobile devices with very limited computing power, but I’d say that’s a WHOLE different subject than the traditional Linux desktop.

    What counts for me are the applications and I want a Linux system that let’s me run the stuff I need with least distractions or headache. Today, Ubuntu is doing quite a good job in that respect, but if messing around with the graphics subsystem breaks applications that I am using I will not hesitate to switch to another distribution. So, from my perspective, the ideal outcome would be that I don’t notice a difference. And for that, nothing needs to change in the first place. The time and effort would be spent with more effect on projects like nouveau. Fiddling with installing and configuring the right version of the NVidia driver is getting on my nerves for the longest time and an open source driver in the mainstream Linux kernel/X server would hopefully resolve some problems.

  180. Les says: (permalink)
    November 6th, 2010 at 10:51 pm

    @Mark I loved your last reply to Christoph. Your philosophy of putting the user, not the developer first is what brought me from Windows to Linux. I am not a programmer, just a user who couldn’t care less about programmers’ philosophical arguments – I just want to use my computer, and I want it to work. Since coming to Ubuntu, I’ve tried several other Linux distributions as well, and I’ve convinced several family members and friends to try Linux, with two solid conversions so far. It astonishes me how much criticism is directed at you from other Linux users when there are 300+ other distros to try if they don’t like yours. So please, keep doing what you’re doing and let them all fight with each other if they really want to. Linux needs you. I think you need a new business card from Canonical: Mark Shuttleworth, User Advocate.

  181. James Linder says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 12:19 am

    Most comments are gee-wiz beauty.
    I do not want and do not use any user experience things (smooth wobbling spinning grow-when-mouse-over).
    I do much work with ssh and remote display.
    I use an eee with 10.04 and would love the multi-touch features of 10.10 but the interface of 10.10 is so horrid I keep 10.04 and suffer without multi-touch.
    So, since I’m in the minority, but not unique, could you have wot-u-dun documented clearly enough so that it is possible to undo what you distribute – p-p-p-pleeeeze
    I tried to undo 10.10 remix and revert to 10.04 look-n-feel. Messy and too hard

  182. Jeremy says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 2:52 am

    Hi Mark. In my job I deal with customers (90% of whom are your “average Joe”) daily. Whether they are home users or business users I see how they understand or don’t understand (as if often the case) the environment they use. This ongoing experience has made me acutely aware of the need for intuitive simplicity in an interface that is also a delight to use. The idea of Unity on Wayland sometime in the future is exciting. I look forward to seeing what glimpses of this we will see in 11.04 and providing constructive feedback where I can.

  183. Alain Greppin says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 2:52 am

    Cool, I switch to Ubuntu when this works !

  184. MisterGaribaldi says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 3:05 am

    @Mark:

    I know you’re a busy guy, so I’ll try to keep this as brief and to the point as possible.

    1. Thanks for creating some movement in the GUI / display server world. I agree with your comments and those of many others. X is more than just “getting a bit long in the tooth” and if Linux is to compete for the hearts and minds of users out there, we need a breath of fresh air.

    2. With all due respect to Mr. Raymond’s seminal “Cathedral and the Bazaar”, Mark, I would like to suggest the biggest problem with the bazaar is the general lack of focus or, as I’ve heard people put it, “trying to herd cats”. It’s all fine for the Linux community to be motivated by scratching their own itches, but there does come a point where leadership and focus would actually be a good thing.

    Where I’m going with that is this…

    3. Wayland is going to be a good choice if you do it right, and I’m assuming you will, but we need more than just that. If we are to compete then we need a really good multimedia experience, and that means doing something about the audio subsystem as well. I’m not against choice — good lord I’m a fairly libertarian pro-capitalist sort — but when many of the choices simply stink, and the one (or two?) which don’t also don’t have the same level of maturity and capabilities and hardware support as would be reasonably expected, well… So I guess what I’m saying is, do you have intentions of putting some serious focus behind audio as well?

    and lastly…

    4. Mark, I don’t expect you to do everything — or even be capable of it — but we need focus, leadership, and resources put into professional apps. We need something of the caliber of Dreamweaver, of Photoshop (Gimp’s a great start, but it’s hardly a “professional’s tool”), Illustrator, Quark or InDesign, PeachTree or Great Plains, and even professional caliber “regular user” apps too, like iMovie and iDVD, Garage Band (though it’s hard to compete with a company that has the budget to hire professional musicians and all that, I know). But it’s these sorts of holes that keeps Linux from being a far more dominant player in the desktop space than it is.

    Even encouraging other Linux “movers and shakers” to help in these areas would be a blessing to all of us.

    Thanks!

  185. Geek de France : Wayland à la place de X pour Ubuntu | Le Techno Mag says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 4:29 am

    [...] Source : http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 [...]

  186. salemboot says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 5:54 am

    Bruce Lee would be proud.

    Strip away the non-essentials.

  187. גירסת אובונטו הבאה – והטעויות | כמה מילים, ברשותכם says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    [...] לפני מס' ימים את הפוסט של מארק שאתלוורט', הבעלים של חברת Canonical ש"מייצרת" [...]

  188. novatillasku.com » Blog Archive » Ubuntu adoptará Wayland en próximas versiones says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 11:14 am

    [...] el escritorio. Pero no era sólo éste el cambio que iba a producirse en Ubuntu.El jueves pasado, Mark Shuttlewhorth, nos hablaba del cambio proresivo que esperan realizar, adoptando para Ubuntu Wayland, un sistema [...]

  189. another_sam says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Dave Johansen said: “I think that this sounds nice, but network transparency is a HUGE advantage that Linux has and any change to the display manager should be sure to maintain the simplicity and efficiency of doing something like “ssh -X” over solutions like VNC.”

    Because of technical complexity vs user interest, I’d relax that:
    - The possibility of running Ubuntu remotely (although maybe without visual effects) should not disappear and should not become hard to get.
    - So, instead of having remote access + frame perfectionism in the same DM, I’d rather go for having two options; a DM with remote access, and a DM with frame perfectionism.

    And choosing frame perfectionism by default I think is clearly the right choice because there are quite more desktop users interested in that, and their average knowledge about getting non-default options working is quite lower.

  190. Diego Viola says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    Mark,

    Please listen to your users, the majority of people want a nice desktop experience, super-smooth graphics, the majority of people want Wayland and new user experience.

    Those who want X11, just keep X11 in the repositories for a while, for those who want it, but please work and invest on making Wayland the default for the users who are the majority, for those who believe in the Linux desktop.

  191. Jon Loldrup says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    I just finished installing Ubuntu 10.10 on my younger cousins computer. It was so frustrating having to work with all these bugs and half baked social features.

    What a let down :(

    Quality control is important! Ask Apple!
    Don’t make all Ubuntu users be your beta testers

    kind regards Jon Loldrup

  192. Sam Spilsbury says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    In case anyone is interested, I’ve got a video of wayland in action + a little description of how compiz could work with it on http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2010/11/07/compiz-in-a-strange-new-land/

  193. yman says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    Do people *read*? Mark says clearly that full compatibility with Xorg can be achieved via an X implementation on top of Wayland. Which means nothing would change for apps that rely on X. So you’ll have all your LTSP and SSH -X that you want. And if apps aren’t written directly to Wayland but instead on a toolkit that supports both Wayland and X, then they can continue to work like usual.

  194. Clive says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    Mark,

    I really applaud the way that you are showing leadership and vision in the FOSS community and I hope that this move proves to be another example of that principle. However, can I please ask that you pay extremely close attention to maintaining stability, integrity and function for ubuntu? A KDE 3.X user for years, I found ubuntu’s adoption of the 4.X release to be a little premature and beset with problems. Lucid, for example, contained KDE code that simply refused to work with my Asus sound card (a Xonar) [an issue now thankfully fixed with Maverick]. I know and I fully understand that neither you, Canonical nor the Ubuntu Community are responsible for the development cycles of the thousands of packages that ubuntu supports, but I truly believe that, as a community, we need to raise our game with respect to maintaining stability whilst evolving the user experience as intelligently as we can.

    For me this works a little bit like hydrodynamics – as a fluid moves across a surface, different parts of the flow travel at different speeds. A river running over sand and rocks moves quickly at the surface, but more slowly over the sand at the bottom of the river. I would like to see ubuntu evolve to this sort of shear-plane model. Major components, drivers, and software architecture need to be introduced slowly, gently, in a way that gives the development community time to adjust to them. Applications components, utilities, user-facing software, conversely, needs to be updated more frequently. I like the visualisation of shear-plane for several reasons…

    Executed with intelligence it allows each layer of our software environment to evolve at it’s own pace but in harmony with it’s surroundings. One of the most important features needed to make this a success is transparent communication. Are there ways that ubuntu users can more closely cooperate with the providers of core infrastructure to help catch and iron out break-points as they happen? Are you happy with the present model? How can we better join together a technical luddite [but avid supporter] like myself with those who write or support components, so that we can continue to evolve ubuntu to be the best GNU/Linux distro on offer?

    These are not trivial questions. ubuntu earned a reputation early-on for rock-solid reliability and a responsive evolution. We’ve kept the latter, but recently the former has started to look a little dented. Maybe a better orchestration of the various subsystems – integration and regression testing – will help.

  195. Ubuntu utilizará Wayland en lugar de X Window says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    [...] historia continúa, y ahora Mark Shuttleworth ha anunciado en su blog que Unity dejará de usar el tradicional servidor X Window (X.org) para pasar a utilizar [...]

  196. cba says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    NVidia was asked about Wayland support in their forums and this is the answer from NVidia’s Aaron Plattner:
    “We have no plans to support Wayland.”
    http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=5dfdd8bea097152286c75a6037bef542&t=156833

    This might be bad news for all those Ubuntu users who rely on the proprietary NVidia graphics driver, if Wayland will be used so soon.

  197. Kein X-Server mehr? at Cowboy´s Linux-Blog says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 5:19 pm

    [...] erklärt Mark Shuttleworth in seinem Blog, dass mittelfristig auf das leichtgewichtige und auf OpenGL basierende System umgestiegen werden [...]

  198. Tim says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    I am really looking forward to this… as long as it won’t have the same problems like X. Needed weeks to get an extended display over 2 graphic cards and 3 monitors working. Hopefully the developers will think about that, since it was really one of the main graphic problems for a bunch of people in X…

  199. Jan says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    It seems that the purpose of this post was to stake a claim on Wayland – to try to show that Canonical are thought leaders.
    I suspect that the reality is that Canonical will, as usual, sit back and watch others develop the technology

  200. enedene says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 7:19 pm

    Here’s what nvidia employee said about possible wayland support:
    http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?s=99209e23a1013723450a623f49d4c1dd&p=2343452&postcount=11
    This is precisely why Ubuntu needs 5% of total desktop market share, this way anyone can bully them. No firm cares if their product is not compatible with Linux Ubuntu because they assume that the market share is insignificant.

  201. اوبنتو سوف تنتقل من X server إلى Wayland « لينوكس للكل says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    [...] سوف يكون اكبر تغيير هو اﻹنتقال من X server إلى Wayland http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551 مارك ذكر انه لن يكون جهاز خلال ستة اشهر يعني ربما في [...]

  202. Gerald Connolly says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 8:24 pm

    The district of Wayland in Norfolk (England) will be very thrilled by all this activity around their name!
    See http://www.midnorfolktimes.com/MidNorfolkTimes/tabid/55/Default.aspx

  203. Canonical metterà una x sulla X - The New Blog Times says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    [...] di ambienti Linux e in ambienti Unix veri e propri.Perché questo passo? Stando a quel che spiega Mark Shuttleworth, fondatore di Canonical, le ragioni ci sono e sono anche abbastanza valide.Tutti [...]

  204. Canonical metterà una x sulla X - The New Blog Times says: (permalink)
    November 7th, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    [...] di ambienti Linux e in ambienti Unix veri e propri.Perché questo passo? Stando a quel che spiega Mark Shuttleworth, fondatore di Canonical, le ragioni ci sono e sono anche abbastanza valide.Tutti [...]

  205. Ubuntu planea utilizar Wayland en vez de X | Linux Zone says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 12:21 am

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth ha anunciado que Ubuntu irá abandonando progresivamente X en favor de Wayland, un sistema gráfico más compacto y moderno, totalmente integrado y dependiente de Open GL ES. [...]

  206. Markus Chambers says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 1:43 am

    “I’m sure you won’t be left out. The major vendors want Linux to work well with their hardware, mainly because there are lots of systems being built with their hardware that run it. They will figure out a strategy to help you and other users. Your best approach is to find a way to tell them you run Linux and Ubuntu and that’s important to you in your buying decisions.”

    According to the above thread referenced by enedene, which states “we have no plans to support Wayland” by NVidia, I have a hard time seeing your promises coming to fruition Mark.

    Perhaps a better strategy would be to first secure some sort of partnerships with the hardware manufacturers – possibly through some profit sharing program. That way you don’t have to drop the responsibility on users which is to beg for H/W support.

    It’s akin to like selling tickets to a concert with the stipulation that the ticket holders are responsible for ensuring that all of the acts are interested in showing up and performing. Rather daft logic IMO.

  207. Max E. says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 6:31 am

    “We’d like to embrace Wayland early, as much of the work we’re doing on uTouch and other input systems will be relevant for Wayland and it’s an area we can make a useful contribution to the project.”

    This is great but evades the issue which everyone is asking you about, “will you fund Wayland’s development.” Pushing some of your own pet projects into Wayland isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but gets Wayland no closer to being usable. So. I ask again, will you commit to funding Wayland development in a big way? I do NOT mean extending the scope of the Wayland project or adding whole new features that the original developer never had on his roadmap (not that you shouln’t do this also!)

    Will you commit to taking an active role in getting the *core functionality* of Wayland developed, while allowing the existing developers to lead your people in their technical choices? Will your contributions directly and measurably remove items from the Wayland TODO list? (http://cgit.freedesktop.org/wayland/tree/TODO)

    Or will you do what you have always done before, which is your own TODO items and solve them in relative isolation? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with doing this! But it doesn’t always get the state of the project closer where the upstream dev team wants it to be. Or you might end up using a solution which upstream doesn’t like.

    I want to be very clear that I think it’s great for Canonical to take the initiative and do whatever it takes to advance the goal of a usable free software desktop. But if some program’s developers want to add feature A, and you go and and feature B instead, it will be a crap shoot whether the effort is appreciated. If you create your own pet projects and then suddenly present them for merging (uTouch et al,) while it may still be constructive and a Good Thing, it’s not the Best Thing. Especially if the software in question is still in alpha, because in that case there are clearly a lot of other things you could work on instead, things which are guaranteed to be appreciated by everyone.

    So why not reach out to Kristian Høgsberg and ask (and I apologize if you already have, but I really doubt it) if he really cares at all about uTouch? If he says something like, “I don’t really care, but I won’t object and will accept patches if you try to add it,” then the correct response is NOT to go and add it. Instead, you should try asking him, “okay, then what *would* you get excited about if we helped with it?” In that way, you get Wayland closer and closer to coming out of alpha. You can worry about stuff like uTouch when there is a 1.0 release.

    Your mileage may vary.

  208. Microsoft, el primer bug de Ubuntu en ALT1040 (Software) says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 8:44 am

    [...] la versión 11.04. Pues eso es apenas superficial, porque hace unos días Shuttleworth anunció que Unity correrá sobre Wayland, un servidor gráfico que promete reemplazar el legendario servidor X.De hecho, el estatus del bug [...]

  209. Gosha says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    By the way, in most cases the lack of network transparency of Wayland can potentially be made up with Spice, an open source solution for interaction with virtualized desktop devices.

  210. Rufinus says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 10:49 am

    As long as you support Multimonitor setup (and with multi i mean MORE THEN 2 (FYI more then 2 montitors only work with xinerama, (or own xscreens) because of lack of nvidia twinview/amd/ati support))

  211. Tim says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    This takes balls, well done! I’m looking forward to Ubuntu on Wayland.

  212. Ubuntu se prepara para migrar do X Window para o Wayland | Linux Ajuda says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    [...] explica melhor o ponto de vista a favor dessa mudança, defendida enfaticamente por seu editor. E o anúncio de Mark Shuttleworth (em link enviado ao BR-Linux por O Máskara), naturalmente, é um bom local para conhecer melhor a [...]

  213. Miguel Angel says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    Hello Mark, I think we might need a comparative benchmark between wayland and x.org to understand how different the performance can be.

    A picture is worth a thousand words.

  214. Chris says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    Mark, its quite clear, even many Linux “journalists” seem to get it now, that Canonical isnt aiming at the desktop anymore.
    You figured out that you cant make money from the desktop and your company will never be self sustainable from it.
    You realised that the future, and where the money is at is the mobile devices/gadgets market. And that where you’re aiming. You want to make money after all, thats what companies are for.
    Dont you think its time you explained that to people, be sincere to be them and most importantly to the people who contribute their own time and energy to your project without getting paid for it?
    Ubuntu bug #1 says that the goal is (was) to beat Microsoft in the desktop market. Is that still your #1 goal? I think not.
    You know, in the business world having aces up your sleeve can offer you a very strong advantage. In the (F)OSS world, even if it is to some large extend a worls dominated by businesses, in an ecosystem where many people work for you for free, directly or indirectly, not telling people the truth, is disasterous.
    Openness (not just of the source) and honesty work wonders.

  215. StormRider says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    Ohhh this is just “great”…

    KDE 4.x uggly “desktop”/Interface/”performance”, PulseAudio, that “thing” called Nouveau, the Gnome 3.0 shell , Unity, Wayland and who_knows
    _what_else_that_these_self_called_Linux_”guru”_devs_”invent”_to_degrade_further_and_further_the_Desktop_performance_and_true_”usability”_just_because_they_want_to_”innovate”_and/or_because_that_insane_crusade_against_anything_that_it’s_not_open_source…

    …as you are at it, why don’t you “reinvent” the wheel ?

    Let me check….Ohhh…my “old” and “outdated” XP installation DVD…Bye Linux.

  216. Ubuntu trying to throw its weight around? « CyberTech Rambler says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    [...] is going to use Unity instead of GNOME as desktop managerin the next version, and (2) Ubuntu is switching to Wayland instead of X server as the display server. Susan Linton as a good post on how the two [...]

  217. anzan says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    Mark, this could be very good or very bad. With Unity as the default, one can always ditch and use something else. But changing the windowing system itself will affect choice of WM (I doubt Fluxbox or Openbox or Enlightenment would work) and shrink the user’s options considerably. Which could be worth it if the end product is as excellent as you hope it will be.

    So we’ll see?

    Wayland+Unity = Weyland-Yutani?

  218. JaKaiser says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 4:54 pm

    Yeah mr. Shuttleworth! This is the first time I heard this statements since the Waldo Bastian’s analysis about KDE! :D

  219. Huey Smith says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 5:21 pm

    We (as in, the business We) have had enough “bold and brave” tinkering. This has proven to be THE last straw in a long string of “bold and brave” decisions. Back to RHEL for us, sorry.

  220. Martin says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    I am very excited about this development! I have always been hoping we could see a move away from the archaic X (though it has served us well in the past), and now is the time!
    With all the focus and excitement around the desktop however, will we see some more attention in future on the server, like, let’s say, I don’t know … get Ubuntu Server SAP-certified?
    Thanks again for a great distro!

  221. Ubuntu abandonará X11 para utilizar Wayland says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 7:11 pm

    [...] Shuttleworth, fundador de Ubuntu, publicó en su blog que el proyecto Ubuntu planea cambiar a un sistema de gráficos mucho más nuevo. Aproximadamente [...]

  222. xDevTA says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    @Mark
    I’m really sad. Why are you doing this? Why don’t you just contribute to X and make it better?
    Of course, this is not going to help free software. We need to focus on one project.
    I’m sorry, but it seems that there is no hope for desktop Linux while everyone is working for himself.
    Just help make X better, Improve uTouch and Unity (but please, fix the laggy performance).

  223. Nils says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    > In general, this will all be fine – actually *great* – for folks who have good open source drivers for their graphics hardware.

    I was excited that finally the dinosaur or xserver is replace until I read that.. What makes you think that there will be good open source drivers one day? The only working GPU drivers available are the proprietary Nvidia drivers and I don’t think that Nvidia will open source them. It works all great: Open GL and even CUDA. The dev tools, nvcc and nvidia-gdb are fine too. However the open source drivers on the other hand really suck, they crash make the system unstable, etc and it does not seem to get better. I don’t understand why Linux does not provide an API for proprietary drivers in a similar fashion as Windows, since this would solve the problems. (The NV drivers work fine if you have the appropriate kernel/driver version, but after a kernel upgrade you probably end up with a black screen [1]) Also because of the [2] stable_api_nonsense.txt in the kernel sources I don’t see this problem resolved.

    I personally use a macbook pro since quite a while and am happy with OSX and think that Linux on the desktop still has a very long way to go. However I’m willing to try it out and probably help with it (since I’m interested in how it works anyway..). I also have a spare laptop HP compaq 8510p with an ATI Radeon 2600 HD on which I could try it out. What’s the easiest way to try it out (you didn’t provide a link in your article) and is there a chance to get it working with an ATI GPU?

    [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=buntu+black+screen+nvidia&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
    [2] http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt

  224. Leif says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    FYI, this article has been mentioned in a tweek by John Carmack.

    http://twitter.com/#!/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1711851343708160

  225. Nils says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    > Did you think that Canonical has enough free developer to contribute actively to the project. Or there will be some developer for bug fix ?

    Yep this seems like a fair question too, this task need really skilled developers where to get them?

  226. Nils says: (permalink)
    November 8th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Did you talk with Nvidia about the issue? This could be crucial to get it working in the end (at least with the GPUs of one vendor, I doubt that ATI will invest)

  227. yman says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 1:49 am

    @Chris
    What indications do you have of Ubuntu moving away from the desktop?

  228. yman says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 1:51 am

    Doesn’t Wayland just require a driver that supports KMS? Or what are the requirements?

  229. منتديات says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 1:57 am

    Doesn’t Wayland just require a driver that supports KMS? Or what are the requirements?

  230. Andreas says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 2:20 am

    Thank you very much for taking this leap! It is sorely needed and although there probably will be some hiccups during the transition, like with pulseaudio, the end result will be a stellar Linux desktop. My ubuntu media center can easily do things now it couldn’t do before Pulseaudio, and with the tearing gone the system will work even better in my media center setupt!

  231. psuedonomous says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 4:13 am

    I have very mixed feelings about this. I like the wayland project, I really do, but I have really developed a dependency on X11 running remote X11 clients, and I can’t be the only one. You have to understand when people keep beating this topic into the ground is that they don’t just care about the ability to display remote X-clients on their Ubuntu machines, they care about their ability to log into a an Ubuntu desktop or Server at home and run X-clients on that machine. This is really powerful, and one of the few compelling features of linux/unix for which no real equivalent exists on any other operating system. You interface with remote applications LIKE they are local, and it doesn’t require a VNC or RDP client, it basically just works (although, in this day and age, you should really run it through an encrypted tunnel). There is no burden on application developers to implement a client/server model for remote interaction. X11 just does it for you. And it’s awesome. And anybody who’s cheering on the death of X11 needs to play around with display forwarding for awhile before they’re so happy to see X go.

  232. Ubuntu dice addio ad X, si passa a Wayland | TUXJournal.net says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 7:18 am

    [...] la ragguardevole età di 30 anni e non riesce più a stare al passo coi tempi. Attraverso il suo blog, Shuttleworth ha fatto sapere che X non è più in grado di offrire agli utenti di Ubuntu [...]

  233. marcus says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 7:24 am

    when will i be able to have a conversation with my laptop? seriously?.. never mind facebook & tweety.

  234. Neues rund um Ubuntu | chrissler says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 9:33 am

    [...] soll das alte Grafiksystem durch ein neues ersetzt werden. Dabei handelt es sich Mark Shuttleworth zufolge, wohl um Wayland, ein schlankes, OpenGL-basiertes Grafik- und [...]

  235. Gord says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 11:08 am

    I need an early statement on whether other WMs will work seamlessly with Wayland.
    Half of our workforce run Fluxbox with a very limited menu. Other than the menu itself, no other work is involved in cutomising for them. The rest use a mix of Openbox/XFCE and Gnome. None of the staff are impressed with Gnome, when offered KDE instead they nearly revolted. They seem to actually desire speed and single/dual purpose desktops, once they’ve compared them.
    We’ve invested heavily in Atom SFFs for the offices, they simply cannot cope with the apps we run and Gnome; more to the point, they don’t need to!
    (The power budget comes directly from our IT budget at most of our sites)

  236. No Plans For a Linux Based Wayland-DisplayServer « The Legacy: Technology Related News & Reviews says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    [...] founder of Canonical (Mark Shuttleworth)  revealed that Ubuntu is intended to implement Wayland instead of X.ORG server and one of the [...]

  237. Ubuntu Unity z serwerem Wayland - Najciekawsze Wiadomości z Sieci says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    [...] Unity z serwerem Wayland lis 5 Ubuntu Założyciel Canonicala, Mark Shuttleworth ogłosił, że kolejne wydanie Unity będzie zawierać alternatywę dla serwera X11 – [...]

  238. Sean says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    I don’t like the sound of this. Pulseaudio was and still is a problem for me and most friends who used Ubuntu. Now Wayland will mean that if anyone wants to play 3D-accelerated games with their computer, they’ll need an MS OS. I think GNU+Linux distributors need to start paying attention to games and multimedia.

  239. Canonical plans to drop the X Window System from Ubuntu Linux. – The Category5.TV Newsroom says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    [...] [1, 2, [...]

  240. اوبنتو يودع X11 | تيدوز says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    [...] رسوميات, سطح مكتب, لينكس, مارك شاتلوورث, نظام / 0 مشاهدةأعلن مارك شاتلوورث في مدونته أن فريق تطوير أوبنتو سيقوم [...]

  241. fanman says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    Actually i always wondered why despite of having better hardware every year since 1998, linux graphic/display is still not smooth like windows (glitches, jerky effect). After knowing about ubuntu migration to wayland, i start reading about x.org & its “networking” & “server” characteristics.

    Now i understand. x.org is the mother of all linux graphic problems.
    Congrates to you Mark & cannonical for this brave move. Linux has too many geeks & they all like ostritch burying their heads and unaware of the linux graphic problem (& linux desktop problem as a whole).

  242. مکی کا بلاگ » بلاگ کی محفوظات » ابنٹو X11 کو الوداع کہے گا says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    [...] شٹلورتھ نے اپنے بلاگ پر اعلان نازل فرمایا ہے کہ ابنٹو میں مشہورِ زمانہ X11 ایکس ونڈو [...]

  243. Gibizz News » Ubuntu Will Adopt Wayland Graphics System (PC World) says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    [...] Wayland, a lean, OpenGL-based display management system, Mark Shuttleworth said in a Thursday post on his [...]

  244. اوبنتو يتخلى على مزود الرسوميات X11 : المتفوقين للأخبار التقنية says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    [...] أعلن مارك شاتلوورث في مدونته أن فريق تطوير أوبنتو سيقوم بالتخلي عن مزود الرسوميات الشهير X11 والتحول إلى نظام Wayland الذي سيساعدهم على تبني واجهة Unity بشكل أفضل من X11 كما أنه يقدم أداءاً أفضل من مزود X11 الذي يبلغ من العمر 25 سنة. [...]

  245. Bryan says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    “X” has always been my pet peeve. In my opinion, it is bloated, out of date, and exercises “unrighteous dominion”; in short, a real mess. I could not be happier to see X go!

    I have been checking the progress of Wayland closely these past few months. Hooray for Wayland!

  246. Bryan says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    @yman:
    Wayland uses the Direct Rendering Manager (DRM), Kernel Mode-Setting (KMS) and the Graphics Execution Manager (GEM). It is written in OpenGL ES (OpenGL for Embedded Systems).

    So, the requirements are: hardware accelerated OpenGL.

    Most (if not all) GPU’s already supported by Linux support KMS. Even _my_ GPU is supported (Radeon 9250; RV280).

  247. andreabat says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    To boldly go where no distro has gone before!
    I am confident you guys have the insight, skills, dedication to make this happen.
    Good luck.

  248. Ubuntu cambia el sistema de ventanas X.org por Wayland : WwW.Los Pirateros.Net says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    [...] Vía: Mark Shuttleworth [...]

  249. Tom says: (permalink)
    November 9th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    If this looks like leading us towards faster lighter-weight graphics and stuff then surely that’s fantastic. I am sure there will be plenty of worries that get ironed out along the way.

    I keep most of my people and my my boot in a multi-boot system on LTS releases and then just keep trying out the in-between versions when i can. Having something in 11.10 seems like a great plan so that people have plenty of choices for a good long time
    Regards from
    Tom :)

  250. Darxus says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 3:16 am

    What are the issues that need to be solved with Wayland?

    What lessons were learned?

  251. Michael Krog says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 8:17 am

    @psuedonomous

    Of course, X its benefits but it is at the expense of graphics performance, as I see it.

    In Wayland, it will be possible for “ordinary” users to get good graphics performance While it is possible for X users to run X on top of Wayland.

  252. Michael Krog says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 8:24 am

    Well done Marc + Canoncial!

    I think it becomes more and more interesting to seek a job at Canonical! :)
    What’s not to like?:
    - Open Source (V)
    - Great product (V)
    - Fantastic prospects (V)
    - Super Innovation (V)

    That’s the whole package! :)

  253. mark says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 8:40 am

    @Chris

    If Canonical’s primary mission was anything other than “bring free software to the widest possible desktop audience” we would not put most of our effort into the desktop. But that *is* our mission, and it remains our priority. The computing world is increasingly diverse, to be sure, and we need to think about ways to spread free software to those new corners, but I don’t see any indication of Canonical softening it’s passion for the desktop, and I expect someone would have told me if that were the case ;-)

    Mark

  254. Joshua Rasnier says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 9:56 am

    I believe you guys should go for it. If you guys don’t, someone else will.

  255. Tom says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    Yes, the X11 server is bloated and ugly. But so what? X11 works, there are plenty of drivers, and there is good backwards compatibility. Whatever X11 is doing internally, it’s fast enough to support everything from desktop usage to full 3D graphics.

    Do you have any concrete evidence that Wayland will improve anything? Where are the benchmarks? Where are usability analyses? What more graphics performance do I need than run multiple 3D apps and video decoding simultaneously, while rotating my desktop-cube-warped-as-a-sphere on two HD monitors simultaneously? What functionality could you possibly add to that?

    Supporting X11 in any meaningful way on top of Wayland is a pipe dream; nobody has managed to do that in 20 years of X11. Both on Windows and OSX, X11 apps are poorly integrated foreign bodies, with broken window management, broken keymaps, and failing desktop integration.

    Sorry, we just want to get work done, and a move by Ubuntu to Wayland does not seem to contribute to that in any way. If Ubuntu switches to Wayland, my company is going to drop it and move to another distro; we simply don’t need the hassle. I think the resources you’re going to spend on this could be much more meaningfully spent on fixing bugs and improving usability.

  256. أخبار على السريع – ubuntu يترك X11 | مدونة نوافذ لينكس says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    [...] ( 1 – 2 – 3 [...]

  257. Linux Mint me causa incertidumbre | Com-SL says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    [...] se ha hablado del el anuncio de Mark Shuttleworth de cambiar radicalmente muchos aspectos de Ubuntu, Canonical apostará por implementar otras [...]

  258. Ubuntu vai abandonar o X11 | Dicas Linux says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    [...] em configurações bizarras de vídeo onboard e monitor vagabundo.O motivo da mudança, segundo Mark explicou em seu blog, tem muito a ver com a velocidade do X e a complexidade de obter resultados gráficos realmente [...]

  259. Martin says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    @xDevTA I think you have somehow missed the point of what Free Software is all about. Free Software is all about diversity and choice. If you are so worried about X, why don’t you do something for it instead of expecting others to do it?

  260. Linux Mint dice NO al cambio | Linux Hispano says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    [...] sustituido por Unity. Confirmado por Mark Shuttleworth (fundador de Canonical) en su blog, aquí la entrada en sí. Logo de [...]

  261. S03E20 – The Midnight Flyer – MP3 LOW | Ubuntu Podcast from the UK LoCo team says: (permalink)
    November 10th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    [...] Collective “WTF is Wayland!?” [...]

  262. Ubuntu Dumps X For Unity On Wayland says: (permalink)
    November 11th, 2010 at 12:00 am

    [...] [...]

  263. mwm says: (permalink)
    November 11th, 2010 at 3:17 am

    http://getsatisfaction.com/adobe/topics/produce_creative_suite_for_linux

  264. mushkinMX » Blog Archive » Linux Mint dice NO al cambio says: (permalink)
    November 11th, 2010 at 11:20 am

    [...] Gnome sustituido por Unity. Confirmado por Mark Shuttleworth (fundador de Canonical) en su blog, aquí la entrada en sí. [...]

  265. Ubuntu deverá substituir ambiente X11 — Espaço Liberdade says: (permalink)
    November 11th, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    [...] sem grandes ajudas da comunidade, e acaba não sendo compatível com grande parte das aplicações. Mark Shuttleworth disse no seu blog que, provavelmente, irão ajudar os desenvolvedores do KDE e Gnome (1%?) para que tornem a [...]

  266. Miguel Angel says: (permalink)
    November 11th, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    What I don’t understand is why a distribution can’t do different things. If someone doesn’t like the policy of Canonical he always could any other distribution.

    It’s better to have different distributions with different desktops than a world were all distributions are clones.

  267. Howie says: (permalink)
    November 11th, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    Hallelujah!!!

    I HATE the X-server!!!

    X11 has been the bane of my Linux experiences since my introduction to it back in the late 90′s.

    Yoooo Hoooo! Hooray, hooray!

  268. Mr. Obvious says: (permalink)
    November 12th, 2010 at 1:26 am

    WOO HOO!! Aim it for the ground and gun it!!

    – The Office of Mr. Head of Development for every other linux distro –
    Wednesday, November 3rd:
    “Darn it, that dag burn Ubuntu keeps steelin’ mah thunder. How is my lil’ distro ever gonna win?”

    Thursday, November 4th:
    “WOO HOO!! nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, hey, hey, hey, goooodbyyyye…”

  269. Ubuntu usará Wayland Display Server con Unity « Software Libre Juventud says: (permalink)
    November 12th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth ha anunciado en su blog que Unity dejará de usar el servidor X Window tradicional de la distribución, X.org, para pasar a [...]

  270. Tom says: (permalink)
    November 12th, 2010 at 7:12 pm

    @Martin “If you are so worried about X, why don’t you do something for it instead of expecting others to do it?”

    I’m not worried about X, I’m worried about Ubuntu.

    @Miguel It’s better to have different distributions with different desktops than a world were all distributions are clones.

    Really? With Microsoft and Apple beating up Linux on “fragmentation”? How is that better?

  271. Brian Vaughan says: (permalink)
    November 12th, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    I’ve never understood the objections to Pulseaudio. On the other hand, I’ve never understood the point of Pulseaudio, either. As far as I can make out, the point of Pulseaudio is that it’s a client/server model, so the server can push audio out to a client on any networked device. Yet I’ve not been able to find any application that takes advantage of that — or a client on anything but Ubuntu, for that matter.

    I bring this up here because what I find puzzling is the contrast between a past decision to move to Pulseaudio, with its network-transparent audio client/server model, and to move away from X11, with its network-transparent graphic client/server model.

  272. Vova says: (permalink)
    November 12th, 2010 at 10:19 pm

    +1

  273. Miguel Angel says: (permalink)
    November 13th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    @Tom

    Free Software needs the “diversity” as Nature uses the diversity to evolve.

  274. ubuntu moves to wayland – was soll der ganze Hype? | icoop says: (permalink)
    November 14th, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    [...] hat also erst gnome shell eine Absage erteilt und legt in seinem blog nach indem er den Wechsel von X11 zu Wayland [...]

  275. hasenj says: (permalink)
    November 15th, 2010 at 1:00 am

    @Tom:

    There’s no “concrete” evidence or concrete anything quite yet, as Wayland is will WIP. Don’t think of what it is now; think about what it *could* be.

    X has so far failed to deliver quite the “perfect” experience; there’s a lot of flickering and tearing even on good hardware. The problem is fundamental to X and its architecture. And Wayland is designed to fix that.

    That, coupled with the fact there’s momentum behind wayland, is enough evidence that this move will be for the better, hopefully.

  276. Martin says: (permalink)
    November 15th, 2010 at 5:47 am

    @Tom Think about it: “Free” software implies freedom. That means freedom for people to choose. The maintainers of Ubuntu are free to do what they want. You are free to choose what distro you use. You are even free to branch off Ubuntu into your own distro if that’s what you want. Therein lies the beauty of Free software.

    If Ubuntu should ever falter because of the decisions made by Mark and Canonical, you would still have the freedom to use the same software of another distribution. If Redmond, however, came up with a really broken Windows release (let’s just call it Vista, as a hypothetical name), their users would really have nowhere to turn.

  277. Fedora: De X à Wayland ! « Zone Libre says: (permalink)
    November 15th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    [...] celle de Mark Shuttleworth à propos d’Unity, vint celle de l’abandon de X pour Wayland sur Ubuntu, et [...]

  278. AR says: (permalink)
    November 15th, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    As we all know after this debate: Wayland needs hardware accelerated OpenGL (ES). Many computers and mobile devices have this, but it still often needs closed source driver to use it. This is especially true with GLES (on mobile devices). This is sad for Freedom.

  279. Un mundo libre » Blog Archive » Ubuntu utilizará Wayland en vez de X says: (permalink)
    November 15th, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth ha anunciado que Ubuntu irá abandonando progresivamente X en favor de Wayland, un sistema gráfico más compacto y moderno, totalmente integrado y dependiente de Open GL ES. [...]

  280. vix says: (permalink)
    November 15th, 2010 at 11:47 pm

    @AR, this is what Kristian said on Wayland mailing list…

    > 3. What are the minimum requirements to run wayland? Does the system have to
    > have a 3D capable GPU? what about virtual GPUs? e.g. cirrus for qemu or
    > whatever other emulators use?

    All wayland needs is a way to share surfaces. And there’s a shm
    mechanisms that uses fd passing,which works on any graphics cards. So
    you could implement wayland with client side all sw rendering (cairo
    image backend, for example) and do software compositing on the server
    side. The only requirement in that case is that you can do
    modesetting in the compositor. Wayland could run on /dev/fb, in other
    words.

  281. Programa 1×08 – Wayland y plataformas de desarrollo en móviles | Pánico en el Núcleo says: (permalink)
    November 16th, 2010 at 8:34 am

    [...] Shuttleworth dice que quiere Wayland [...]

  282. nq6 says: (permalink)
    November 16th, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    The influence of Unity on the Gnome Shell

    The Gnome developers know that 14 million to 16 million will be using the Unity.Eles will not want your users lost in Unity. Then copied the layout. Below is a screen that shows this.

    http://i.imgur.com/w0b5e.jpg

    Today we can see the force of the decisions of the developers of Ubuntu. What we have with the new Gnome Shell, a replica of the Unity. It seems Unity with a new theme.

  283. Linux4UnMe says: (permalink)
    November 16th, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Latest Gnome-Shell Updates.

    Seriously… Gnome 3 is going to be Friggin Awesome!

    http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/11/gnome-shell-screenshot-review/

    And Rock Solid!Canonical, It would be more productive to drop this Unity Project and compromise with Gnome. Both Unity and Gnome-Shell look very much alike as it is… Why have 2 Gnome-Shell Like Environments? Gnome 3 will be Ready come March/April….. Unity will Not. Canonical, Don’t be Foolish, Don’t waste time with Unity when Gnome 3 is going to be Similar, but alot more Stable. And to the Gnome Dev’s, Drop this Clutter “Mutter” rubbish and choose Compiz for Compositing in unification with Gnome-shell Like Canonical decided with Unity. Work Together Guys!!! Gnome + Canonical! with Gnome 3/Gnome-Shell! We Want to see you Guys Work Together to Make Gnome 3 Great! Not have 2 seperate Gnome-Shell Environments. It is a waste of resources and Time when Canonical could be focusing alot more on other usability improvements to Ubuntu which need attention. Gnome are doing a Great Job

  284. Raylton says: (permalink)
    November 16th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    I’m happy with this news, but I am unhappy because I’ll probably have to abandon ubuntu until I buy a PC setup with less problematic than mine (which has a VIA chipset)

  285. Computer = GPU says: (permalink)
    November 17th, 2010 at 9:00 am

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth – strongman behond the Ubuntu Linux distribution (the worlds biggest and an OS actually bigger than Apple OSX) – hade a strike of genious. You can read it here. [...]

  286. mark says: (permalink)
    November 17th, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    @Kaddy

    I disagree. Gnome Shell has adopted many of the design ideas of Unity, and is starting to look very similar. There are still differences – our move to a global menu, the accordion compression placement of launcher icons, our design of the Dash as a unified “sets of data” interface. But you can’t seriously suggest we should drop Unity, when Unity is leading the design evolution – effectively of both projects.

    Gnome 3 is not Gnome Shell. I’m sure we’ll run Gnome 3 apps on Ubuntu in due course, with Unity as the desktop environment.

  287. Linux4UnMe says: (permalink)
    November 18th, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    @mark

    Fair Enough. We’ll see how it turns out in 6 months time. I just Hope you guy’s are smarter next time around and not release buggy, unfinished Software on a Final Release. Unity should of been held back until it was Ready for Prime time. In it’s current state, it has put many People off and left a bad taste in their mouth because of the fact that it is released in this current Mess. Hopefully next release I can give Unity a good review, We’ll see…. My 10.10 Unity review did not speak very highly of it and it has well over 15,000 views.
    Don’t release it until it is ready Guy’s, c’mon…. It’s unprofessional

  288. Martin N says: (permalink)
    November 18th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Here is why Wayland will succeed – first, and this is my personal & unsubstantiated belief – Mark has been inspired by God to take on an initiative so large, that it will take everyone to accomplish it or it will fail. Canonical answers a deep-seated Calling in the heart of the Linux community that has been lying in wait for 10+ years.

    Second, Canonical (Mark) is not leaving anyone in the dust. They are _not_ burning bridges – they are building them. What’s this bridge? It is between a legacy that has served and will continue to serve us well – X11 – and the new future – Wayland. Without backporting X11 as a Wayland client, this project will _not_ succeed! If I was Mark, in addition to making Wayland a stellar display server able to run anything, 2D, 3D, games, etc. all based off OpenGL – my first order of business would be to insure a flawless port of X11 as a Wayland client so that everything that is currently X-based continues to work without any modification to the source code atop Wayland, albeit w/some minor overhead. Second order of business would be to port both Qt & GNOME to run native on Wayland. Everything else will fall out of these 2 top items.

    The reason others have failed at supplanting (e.g. directfb) X11 is because they did not build this bridge that Canonical is building right now. They _burned_ the bridge, e.g. pushed the “reset” button on the entire community, and effectively said to the community – “Hey, we’re not interested in giving you a bridge, just swim really hard and fast across the river/chasm if you’re strong enough, and catch up with us if you can, because we’re better!” It is this kind of über-elitist thinking that can just as well destroy new posibilities as easily as it can create them. Canonical is creating a future where no one is left out, including the present X11-based ecosystem.

    Canonical struck the right chord at the right time to deliver on an idea that will provide the final missing piece in the Linux eco-system – a killer display server along with GUI frameworks that, in my view, will assassinate both OS X and Windows on the desktop/notebook/laptop/tablet/etc and set the OS world free.

    Umuntu Ngumuntu Ngabantu!

  289. Ubuntu | Blog de 4 E.S.O. B says: (permalink)
    November 20th, 2010 at 9:30 am

    [...] Canonical eligió este proyecto por su simplicidad, usabilidad y eficiencia, Mark Shuttleworth ha anunciado recientemente que la versión 11.04 de Ubuntu dejará de lado GNOME para integrar como escritorio nativo Unity. [...]

  290. Xorg or Wayland: Color me disinterested « Motho ke motho ka botho says: (permalink)
    November 20th, 2010 at 10:47 am

    [...] Ubuntu Leave a Comment I laughed uproariously when the news filtered down to me, that Ubuntu was shifting its carcass toward Wayland, as opposed to the ancient monolith [...]

  291. MikeStrom says: (permalink)
    November 22nd, 2010 at 2:23 am

    I really hope this will work out.

    If Ubuntu fails (more), it will be another long cold winter for Linux with sustained penalties for Linux in terms of market shares.

    Why are there so few users of Linux today? I guess it’s because most users, like me, wait for a stable, appealing and useful alternative to Mac OS and Windows, but it just has not materialized in Linux yet. Hopefully this will happen now.

    Good luck Mark, you’ll need it, maybe more than you know!

  292. Linux4UnMe says: (permalink)
    November 23rd, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    LoL @ Martin N
    Mark has been sent by God blah blah blah

    what a bunch of Retoric

  293. Ubuntu userà Wayland al posto di Xorg. Gli strisciano. | brainlink says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2010 at 2:52 am

    [...] pago, adesso ha pensato bene (post di turycell) di leggere nei miei pensieri e nella roadmap di Nokia e anticipare tutti: farà [...]

  294. Understanding the Necessity of Wayland | IPFilter on Linux says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2010 at 7:06 am

    [...] Wayland and the wiseness of the choice has become a phenomena, especially after Mark Shuttleworth annouced Ubuntu's plans to eventually switch to Wayland. Following I will provide a concise reasoning why we [...]

  295. shakta says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Dear Mark, you are taking the path only brave men have taken, by the way this should be done years ago.
    I’ve been thinking about X versus Wayland and all the cockfighting is producing, and only I have to say this, if Apple ever thought X would be a good alternative for a modern graphical server, then why invert time and people developing Quartz? The question seems to be pretty stupid.
    If some one thinks a modern graphical server should be based on X, is making a gigantic joke.
    Now a days graphical servers should have in its core 2D acceleration, 3D acceleration, the ability to play video, low and hi definition without jumps, leaps and glitches, should talk directly with de hardware (or at least with kernel), and yes, is what Windows does and Quartz does, but, as “marginal OSes” as they are, nobody should pay attention to them!
    I’ve been using Linux since 96 and can remember the beauty of XFree86, you need hours to configure and test your configuration, and then X in all its glory. 5 seconds later you have a crashed X session. Now you can have an X session without continuous crashes. But X is X and no mater how many plug-ins to improve o give new functionalities X is and will be X, full stop.
    The big problem with X is portability, if you want some piece of software running in as many architectures as possible, you should create something portable, something that is independent of the OS’s brand and hardware. To reach this goal, you must make some sacrifices, the first of all: performance, why? Because you software should not depend on any OS or hardware specific feature.
    In ancient times when Linux was a toy OS, and the realm of *NIX-*NIX-like-OSes has no ruler the need for a standard graphic server was at the top of the list. Today Linux is the ruler of this realm. In such honorable position, Linux can and must make the changes it deserves to became a real contender in the field of “every day desktop OS”. The big problem is taking the right actions and decision.
    I firmly think changing to Wayland is one of that big decisions and the right one, the next should be create a standard desktop environment, much like MacOS and Windows have done, and yes I shallow, so I want a beautiful and full of style desktop (and by de way, a real usable and complete desktop).
    Next step (I’m not talking about MacOS’s father) should be a working replacement of ALSA, maybe the return of OSS or a different sound system but something better than ALSA.

  296. Metaman says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2010 at 10:07 am

    @Linux4UnMe

    Give him a break. If he wants to go all religious on it, just smile blankly and nod your head. (:

  297. Chris says: (permalink)
    December 3rd, 2010 at 12:31 am

    If Canonical moves to Wayland without proving we will have a stable system that won’t break our existing programs, then my plans are to stop at the last X11 distribution of Ubuntu. I still haven’t forgiven Canonical for foisting pulseaudio and jack on the masses. Just today, I had to search forums to figure out how to record sound from my computer in Audacity. This was a non-issue under ALSA a few releases ago. How is it better going into alsamixer and pavucontrol to change the input device in Audacity??? When I play a midi on my computer, why do I have to pipe my sound through the woefully documented jack when ALSA played it natively?

    From what I am reading about Wayland, then we will have the same problems with pulseaudio where we will have to fight to use a particular graphics interface. Ubuntu lately has become unnecessarily complex!

    Part of my concerns stem from the fact that the open source nVidia drivers are not as mature as the closed source drive. Please remember that not all Ubuntu users work in an office setting. I play games. You say that we will have X11 compatibility, but that will never work as native.

    Even more this will further fragment Linux. We already have problems with developers not writing for Linux because they say they are unable to program against a moving target and, with Ubuntu’s recent track record, I am inclined to agree!

  298. Ubuntu 11.04 Alpha 1 reveals more of the future of Ubuntu | Gear Diary says: (permalink)
    December 3rd, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    [...] like myself already know a lot about this upcoming release as Mark Shuttleworth had announced in November that the new default desktop will be in 11.04.  The new desktop takes queues off of [...]

  299. Martin N says: (permalink)
    December 8th, 2010 at 8:35 am

    @Linux4UnMe & MetaMan

    Yes, you read it here. Mark Shuttleworth = Linux Messiah.

  300. asdf4345 says: (permalink)
    December 12th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    Chris says: (permalink)
    December 3rd, 2010 at 12:31 am

    I still haven’t forgiven Canonical for foisting pulseaudio and jack on the masses.

    Who are you to forgive anything to Canonical? Do they owe you something? The answer is: sorry no.

  301. jo says: (permalink)
    December 15th, 2010 at 3:56 am

    What about the cloud and remote desktop to it? There is nothing that beats NX at the moment. Will it still work?

  302. Ubuntu przyjmie Wayland graficzne System | proportional says: (permalink)
    December 17th, 2010 at 2:42 am

    [...] zamiast Wayland, chude, OpenGL system zarządzania wyświetlacz, Mark Shuttleworth powiedział w post czwartek na swoim [...]

  303. PC Blog » Blog Archive » Ubuntu жертвует традициями Linux в пользу удобства пользователей says: (permalink)
    December 19th, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    [...] проекта Ubuntu Марк Шаттлворт (Mark Shuttleworth) в своем блоге сообщил, что команда Ubuntu не остановится и на этом. [...]

  304. Дорога к Wayland: готовимся к жизни «после X» | My BLOG says: (permalink)
    December 19th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    [...] важное, например, X на Wayland, что может произойти в Ubuntu по предложению Марка Шаттлворта. Реакция на пост Марк Шаттлворта, а [...]

  305. Ubuntu to drop X Server for Wayland | says: (permalink)
    December 21st, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    [...] I didn’t see this coming: Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Ubuntu backer Canonical, has announced that somewhere down the road, Ubuntu will be switching Ubuntu’s base graphics system from the venerable X Windows System to …. [...]

  306. gadgetboi says: (permalink)
    December 22nd, 2010 at 12:34 pm

    If it is good, why not? :mrgreen:

    i havent tried unity yet, still stay with lucid. 3 years baby! :lol: yay! Why bother … I’ll wait the 13.04 instead :D

  307. Imran Chaudhry says: (permalink)
    December 23rd, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Thanks for posting Mark. I wish you, and the whole Ubuntu team, the best for this push to Unity and Wayland. It is very exciting stuff and I look forward to all this goodness in a stable form on Ubuntu 12.04!