Welcome, OpenSUSE developers!

Friday, November 24th, 2006

Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek

We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community – in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions about our position on software patents.

There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.

Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week where new members would be the focus for our whole project.

If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us.

136 comments:

  1. free software advocate says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 4:04 pm

    I would love to hear what will ubuntu end up doing with the binary drivers by default spec in feisty. My opinion: not by default, easy to install (one click). I understand people should have a distro that just works, but ubuntu should be all about frees software, with no exception. It’s the end user choice, ubuntu should always advocate free software. It’s time to pressure graphics vendors for open specs or more collaboration with the community. If they fail to do this then ubuntu or other distro’s shouldn’t make it easy for them to stay like that.

    my 2cents.

  2. Chamada aos “developers” do OpenSuSE de Mark Shuttleworth at Liberdade na era tecnológica? says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 4:19 pm

    [...] Numa mensagem no seu blog pessoal, Mark Shuttleworth apela aos developers que contribuem para o OpenSuSE a olharem para o Ubuntu. [...]

  3. Masuran.org » Blog Archive » Shuttleworth welcomes OpenSuSe developers says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 5:07 pm

    [...] In a recent blog post, Mark Shuttleworth welcomes any OpenSuSe developers that want to join the Ubuntu or Kubuntu project. The post invites developers who are concerned about the long term consequences of the Novell-Microsoft pact to join the Ubuntu Open Week. [...]

  4. Karsten König says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 5:58 pm

    Are you sure it is a good idea to break up the long peace between all the linux distributions ?
    The Novell/Microsoft agreement turned up many discussions, but one should not forget that OpenSUSE is a community project.

    This is very disrespectful and even though I am a happy Kubuntu user this was a dumb step in my eyes.

  5. Glanz says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 6:20 pm

    Excellent!!! That’s a “class” move! You’re quite a positive guy! You have transformed a potentially very negative and unproductive situation into something persuasively constructive. Now I not only enjoy using Ubuntu; I am proud to use it.

  6. Boycott Novell » Shuttleworth: Welcome SUSE Developers says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 6:36 pm

    [...] Calls are coming from all over the community for users and developers to turn their backs on Novell. The latest entreaty is from Canonical’s Mark Shuttleworth, the folks behind the Ubuntu flavors of Debian. If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us. [...]

  7. NOVELL: Cool Blogs » Blog Archive » Ubuntu’s Open Week - and openSUSE says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 8:29 pm

    [...] Ubuntu’s open week sounds like a really good idea. I’m just surprised that it is done to get users away from openSUSE as Mark Shuttleworth announced on the opensuse mailing lists. [...]

  8. Harald Müller-Ney says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 8:51 pm

    Microsoft did the best deal ever!

    They was able to split the community in parts. Instead of combining the forces people poaching others to switch the distribution they use, the distribution they develop with. I am intentional did not use the phrase “develop for”. We all work for open source, for Linux.

    I expect it is human nature to go this path and Mark is not alone. I would call this path “follow Microsofts FUD”.

    Combined forces of Fedora, openSUSE, Debian, Ubuntu, … and also RedHat and SUSE/Novell is what Microsoft feared, besides customers insisting on mixed environments.

    Microsoft has done better than Julius Ceasar, instead of “divide and conquor” their tactic is “smash into pieces without fighting yourself”.

    This a mixed environment is no problem for Microsoft, these pieces will never push them out of the door.

    Harald

  9. pterjan's diary says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 9:08 pm

    Welcome, Ubuntu developers!…

    This is an answer to Mark Shuttleworth as I really don’t like how he tries to benefit from issues in other free software communities….

  10. rubso says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 9:40 pm

    OpenSUSE developers shouldn’t join the ubuntu camp, because all of us wants suse linux to be the most innovative distro..

  11. Karsten König says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 10:32 pm

    Why has my comment been removed ?
    One of the many purposes of blogs is, that the writer can easily get feedback, and just because I don’t have the same oppionion as the author (in this case Mark Shuttleworth) it gets deleted without any notice ?

  12. Jakob Petsovits says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 11:24 pm

    “Free to modify”… such as, say, binary drivers not only included, but enabled by default?
    Disregarding other stuff like ipw3945 as a necessary evil for getting connected at all, I want you to know that the day you get ATI and nVidia get their way with widely activating their blobs is the day I’ll leave Kubuntu. Probably to plain Debian, or Fedora.

    Such a move would have a much bigger impact than Novell’s backfiring marketing gag, it puts the way to a long-time-available Free system into real danger. Novell might risk their image and their future and provide Microsoft with a few arguments for a couple of months, while the binary blob issue risks the future of Free Software on the whole.

    Which would be a shame, because Ubuntu is really doing well with regard to community organization and providing a Desktop That Really Rocks (TM). And because I know that you actually do mean well for Free Software.

  13. Gonzalo says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 11:31 pm

    Mark’s sense of timing is simply brilliant.

    If the outstanding KDE developers that work on Opensuse were indeed enticed to switch to Kubuntu, Kubuntu would become the defacto leader of KDE distributions.

    Besides this very needed welcoming message, I think Mark should go one step further and see whether some Suse developers might not be interested in jumping ship if the right work environment was provided.

    Getting a few good developers into Kubuntu could do lots to balance things out with respect to Ubuntu, which still receives the greater share of development resources. The world is hungry for a very strong KDE distribution and Kubuntu could be it if it gets the love it needs. Yast on Kubuntu would make me switch to it immediately.

    BTW: Thanks Mark for everything you have done up to now. You are changing the world one bit (pun intended) at a time.

    Regards,

    Gonzalo

  14. Ian B Gibson says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 11:39 pm

    Are Ubuntu taking steps to either eradicate Mono-based technology or to ensure there really is no liability toward Microsoft in this regard?

    Surely it would be worth the effort in return for peace of mind and no nasty surprises later on?

  15. Mark Shuttleworth Invites OpenSUSE Developers to Ubuntu Open Week « Linux FUD says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 11:49 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth, Ubuntu founder, invites OpenSUSE developers who are concerned with Novell’s decision to “circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL” to the Ubuntu Open Week events taking place from Monday, November 27th to Saturday December 2nd on IRC. [...]

  16. muszek says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 11:51 pm

    I couldn’t have said it better myself. In fact, news about binary drivers enabled by default in Feisty worried me more than MS-Novell deal, because it’s Ubuntu, not Suse, which I admired for a long time… and hoped that it will play the most important role in spreading FOSS in the next couple of years.

    I’ve always understood Debian’s position on anything non-free. Also, I understood why Ubuntu team made some compromises. I’m affraid this one goes too far, discouraging hardware companies from even considering to care about free software.

    Having said that, I’m not going to gave up on you after one incident… just wanted to state my opinion.

    sincerely yours,
    Matt (Ubuntu user for the past 1.5 years)

  17. ahci.c says: (permalink)
    November 24th, 2006 at 11:57 pm

    Bad timing (most politely said). UbuntuOpenWeek is nice idea, but don’t touch SuSE (or Novell). Like Jakob said, playing with non-free drivers will end up in loosing people that brought Ubuntu to where it is now. Yes, Ubuntu could get some users, but it will surly loose everything that makes Ubuntu (people and whole idea). There is also Launchpad… So, please, don’t attack someone before you clean up your own backyard.

    Ubuntu is doing fine. I know Canonical wants to get something out of it ASAP, but nothing comes over night. Be patient. Ubuntu is really doing fine. You should concentrate on promoting Canonical. RedHat has inferior product and it’s still beating Canonical in marketing. Not to mention Microsoft :)

  18. Sergiy Kudryk says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 12:18 am

    Sorry for offtopic.

    Mark, can you look to scitechsoft.com – they looking for buyer for their excelent cross-platform driver solution SNAP. For most chipsets SNAP drivers works better (more stable and faster) then drivers from X11 system (which is a monster). It’s good to release more code under GPL (currently only API is open sourced not drivers) for Linux community. SNAP MGL / drivers is good modern alternative to X11.

  19. Joergen Ramskov says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 12:52 am

    I’m sorry, but this really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I can’t really explain why (maybe my english is simply not good enough), but it feels wrong, especially your post to the openSuse mailinglist.

    I really like (K)ubuntu and I think what you’re doing with Canonical and the Ubuntu team is amazing, but everyone makes mistakes and I think that letter to the openSuse community was a mistake. I’m pretty sure your intentions are right, but it came out all wrong and I think you’ll see al lot of negative comments about it in various blogs.

    Other than that – keep up the amazing work you’re doing!

  20. Jonathon Conte says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:16 am

    ” . . . protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances . . . ”

    Right, just like Launchpad, Rosetta and those oh-so-tempting-to-have-installed-by-default binary video drivers protect the rights of Ubuntu users who believe in software freedom.

    Mark, as one who has used Ubuntu as my primary desktop since Warty I feel a great deal of respect and gratitude for what you have contributed to the Ubuntu project. However, I cannot help but think of hypocrisy whenever you extol the virtues of free software. Ubuntu’s standing in the community could easily follow that of Novell’s if Ubuntu’s commitment to freedom becomes an afterthought.

  21. judas_iscariote says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:34 am

    Mark, As an opensuse contributor, I say no, Thanks.

    I have no technical reasons to leave, and IIRC Im part of a comunity that creates a linux distribution, not yet another useless religion. too bad you joined to the FUD circus.

  22. rpgmaker says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:43 am

    You’re completely right in some points jakob. I agree that the distro comes with the binaries in itself but no with activating it by default…

    PD: I disagree in that the binarie move is worse that the FUD that Novell help to spread… but really I dont think that mark read this comments or consider it to guide his distro, it just simply had happen before….

  23. Dan Hamilton says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:48 am

    “Such a move would have a much bigger impact than Novell’s backfiring marketing gag, it puts the way to a long-time-available Free system into real danger. Novell might risk their image and their future and provide Microsoft with a few arguments for a couple of months, while the binary blob issue risks the future of Free Software on the whole.”

    I think you’ve got it backwards there… what Novell is engaing in could endanger free software on the whole, while Ubuntu deciding to include binary drivers could hurt only Ubuntu. Supporting a company that claims Linux violates their IP is a big, big matter. Violating the GPL is a matter that can be dealt with swiftly and in a “localized” fashion (i.e. take it up with the distro doing the violation).

    Case in point, the entire community is mad at Novell, but only about half are disappointed at the thought of Ubuntu potentially violating parts of the GPL.

    I do agree in part with Jakob though Mark, I think Ubuntu should maintain a free software mentality. Let binary drivers be added on later at the users choice… I’d hate to see you and yours catch a bad rap for violating the GPL. I’m not a lawyer, but the sense I get is that including proprietary software would violate the GPL… is this correct? Maybe you could enlighten us on the topic.

  24. George Fragos says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 2:30 am

    IMHO, there seems to be a rather large gap between what’s being said and what’s being done. I wonder how many of those that are having a hard time with anything but GPL run systems without non-GPL software like video drivers, wifi drivers and flash to name a few. I could be mistaken but it would appear that the bulk of GPL users have this software on their machines. Do I sense a bit of hipocracy here.

  25. goetia d says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 2:40 am

    I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

    Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn’t they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I’m wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

    “”Corel Sells Out To Microsoft”"
    http://www.forbes.com/2000/10/03/1003corel.html

    “”Interview: Corel’s Linux VP on the Microsoft deal” @ CNN 10/16/2000″
    http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html

    “Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal”
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true

    “Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October.”"After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft’s Windows operating system.”

    “Microsoft Litigation” List – Educate yourself
    http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653

    I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

  26. Just me says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 2:51 am

    Starting with the BIOS in our PCs, most likely 99% of all Linux users use non-free software; the mentioned wireless drivers and the flash player are also good examples. But that is not the point, it is just an unfortunate fact.

    What bothers me *a lot* about the proposed plans for Ubuntu is that they make “non-free” the default when free alternatives exist. Can Ubuntu provide alternatives to the proprietary BIOS issue? No way. Can Ubuntu provide alternatives to the proprietary wireless drivers? No way (yet). Can Ubuntu provide alternatives to the proprietary Video drivers? For the most part yes … but they chose not to do so.

    What I’d like to see is the following:

    1. Get Ubuntu to only default to proprietary video drivers when the free ones absolutely do not support a particular video chipset.

    2. Install the free drivers when the cards are supported, even if only partially, say for 2D operations.

    3. Let the users know that proprietary drivers are available and let them “click” to get them installed as a second step.

    I would then be happy; this would be a safe compromise that follows the spirit of the free software community while balancing the reality of the proprietary hardware and softwware we have to live with today.

  27. bluemage says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 3:57 am

    Also I don’t like the idea that binary drivers would be shipped by default in Ubuntu, I don’t think that this would have such a big impact as the Novell-Microsoft deal.
    I read about this deal in several normal daily news-papers and they all got it wrong. I think that this is the danger about that deal. No free-software-programmer will ever think, that openSuse has a GPL hating, microsoft loving community or anything similar.
    But, there might be a huge impact among small companies (non IT companies, like for example a 100 people joinery) that have read about the deal in a newspaper and now here Steve Balmer talk about “Linux confessed to violate our patents”. They will not change to Linux. And they will not hear the answer from Novell.
    If such a company ever, which is very unlikely, hears about binary drivers being included in Ubuntu, they will ask: “What the hell is binary, and I have never heard about drivers. Will I still be able to do my accounting and use Office, or what?”.
    This is the huge difference between the two often cited events.
    I don’t like software patents, I don’t like binary drivers, but I think Microsoft is the biggest thread to OpenSource. Bigger than anything else. So if I still would use Suse (which I did until last year), I would switch now. To Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, or to something else. But I would switch.

  28. Chris Cox says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:00 am

    Ah… if only Mark could read. Apparently space time didn’t do the ole noggin any good. Oh well. If he was able to read, he would have figured out that Novell did NOT “circumvent the patent framework” of the GPL.

    Next time, do a bit more research before posting Microsoft-like FUD. I certainly didn’t like the agreement however… but there’s no sense in spewing forth anti-Linux garbage like this. Is this really what the Ubuntu community is like? (I know it isn’t, btw)

  29. e.p. says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:42 am

    Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community

    It isn’t clearly articulated. In fact it **is** legal to the point that Eben Moglen feels it necessary to add patent protection GPLv3 to “prevent this from happening” …

  30. Henrique Vicente says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:47 am

    Eh? Indeed patent agreements sucks it is not anything that would make me switch from using SuSe to start using Kubuntu. Imagine if one developer would go to the Ubuntu team because of this…

    Come on… The OpenSUSE Project has equivalent goals of Ubuntu’s. Yes, Novell is the ‘master piece’ of it. But that isn’t enough for someone to go to another group with the same goals [but even technically different, I mean apt, rpm, Yast... what?]. After all the OpenSUSE project is not Novell… And the right thing to do isn’t to fork it or go to work on Ubuntu, but to ‘fight’ to protect the free software philosophy or whatever the people want to defend.

    I hope you rethink about what you’ve said and the future plans of the ‘SUSE to Ubuntu’ week. Being Ubuntu for human beings I can forgive you as human beings are not perfect and commit errors, they just have to realize… :)

  31. Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu) welcoming OpenSUSE developers « Digged Stories says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:59 am

    [...] read more | digg story [...]

  32. nnonix says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 5:17 am

    When these issues become more about politics than the quality of software then there is a real problem. Once a superior open-driver becomes available I have no doubt it will be used. Until then there is NO reason to not use the binary drivers.

    The loudest talkers may wish to martyr themselves for “the cause” but the rest of us just want the best software.

  33. LMMoseley says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 5:31 am

    Quit crying. I pay for my hardware myself and do not cry about not having this or that and most definitively, do not believe that a company should have to open their code to me, because I use an open source system. I do however believe, that we should have Linux and Unix drivers available to us, since we do pay for our hardware, just like Windows users.
    I believe that open source should be able to mingle with closed source, and that since we all share the web together, we should all have access to the codecs and players that are used on the web. Other than that, boo hoo.

  34. Rohan Dhruva says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 5:36 am

    I don’t understand what the fuss is all about. As it is, most users, after installing (k/x)ubuntu just go to the RestrictedFormats page, and those with the nvidia/ati cards go the the BinaryDrivers page. They are just doing it for us, saving us some trouble. Way to go, I actually appreciate the move. :-)

  35. Dmitry Mityugov says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 5:39 am

    > I’ll leave Kubuntu

    K/Ubuntu will be better without users like you. Start moving now.

    Dmitry

  36. anonymous says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 6:19 am

    You probably won’t see this post, but I’m making it anyway

    FUCK MICROSOFT

    anyone who has been involved long enough with Linux and open source knows that the convicted monopoly WILL NEVER benefit Linux.

    Wake up, smell the coffee, read the history of Microsoft (especially the lawsuits) and STOP SUPPORTING MICROSOFT. Stop buying their shit, stop caving in thinking something is going to change, hello IT NEVER WILL.

  37. a7p » Blog Archiv » vs OpenSuSE (Selbstzerfleischung der OpenSource-Bewegung) says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 6:30 am

    [...] Nachdem Novell vor einigen Wochen einen Deal mit Microsoft abgeschlossen hat welcher einen “Nicht-Angriffspakt” beinhaltete, befindet sich die GNU/OpenSource-Szene in einer Phase der Meinungsfindung. Jetzt hat Mark Shuttleworth eine Mail an die OpenSuSE Entwicklerlist geschrieben und diejenigen Entwickler, die mit dem Novell-Microsoft-Deal Probleme haben eingeladen bei Ubuntu  oder einer anderen nicht Patentdealenden Distri mitzuarbeiten (leider kein Link – aber hier der Blogeintrag zum Thema). Dieser Aufruf wurde prompt mit einem satirischen Gegenaufruf auf der Ubuntu-ML beantwortet. [...]

  38. Karoly Negyesi says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 7:40 am

    I welcome those who stand so firm in their faith (open source is the almighty God and if something is not 100% it’s the Devil itself) that they buy only LinuxBIOS supported motherboards, never listen to an MP3, never look at a movie trailer (they are either MOV or WMV), never touch a gaming console and finally, do not use any microprocessor controlled device, be it a washing machine, a mobile phone or their DVD player — unless, of course it runs Linux. Oh, and you better leave your car in the garage — it also has close sourced firmware.

  39. Leave a Reply says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 8:27 am

    “Disregarding other stuff like ipw3945 as a necessary evil for getting connected at all, I want you to know that the day you get ATI and nVidia get their way with widely activating their blobs is the day I’ll leave Kubuntu.”

    Maybe you should poo-poo a Mandriva blog (as one of their liveCDs includes the nVIDIA driver) or some other distro which already rolls a closed driver before posting here about Ubuntu which doesn’t yet.

  40. its about time» Blog Archive » The Linux philosophy is… says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 8:31 am

    [...] Ubuntu’s Mark Shuttleworth » Blog Archive » Welcome, OpenSUSE developers! [...]

  41. L. Mendler says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 9:03 am

    If I’m not mistaken, openSUSE doesn’t include proprietary drivers, so if Feisty Fawn will include graphical proprietary drivers by default, Ubuntu would be the one who should think about what they are doing and not attempt to hire openSUSE developers. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

  42. Famous last words of Marius » No Mark … this is not on … says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 9:10 am

    [...] We all know about the Novell/Microsoft stuff that is going on and most if not all OSS/Linux supporting people does not agree with it.  But Mark, it is not on to use this to try to entice/convince openSUSE developers and community member to join your team.  One thing that is so great about OSS is the freedom it allows us to choose.  Whether that may be  openSUSE, Ubuntu or heaven forbid Windows, we still have that choice and for somebody like you to use things that you do not agree with to entice people to your side is not on.  [...]

  43. geeko says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 10:45 am

    You have to be a real ass to not approve this comment, since we didnt have the choice in our opensuse mailing list.

    But since it seems you read this comments so you can delete them instead of publishing, here is one more: No thanks, Mark, we will not joining such a lame project. Have fun with it. Hope it gets as bad as possible.

    thx

    from the opensuse community

    PS: go fuck yourself

  44. Sslaxx says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 11:41 am

    Mark, will the Ubuntu distribution of OpenOffice.org still contain Novell’s tainted VBA addon? With patent/IP issues extending to Mono and Evolution as well, is it sensible to keep these packages as part of the distro?

  45. Felix Schwarz says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 12:43 pm

    Oh, I am disappointed by Ubuntu too – never thought they might even *consider* enabling the binary blobs by default. I think the only way, things will get better with regard to free drivers is a) to pressure the vendors (complaining users, much work to adapt to changing internal kernel APIs), b) buy supported hardware and c) reverse engineer the specifications if possible at all. By shipping/enabling binary drivers, you basically accept that the kernel needs binary drivers and encourage the vendors to release blobs only. Ultimately this will lead to more unfixable bugs, unhappy users when something breaks because of updates and in the long run it means you go back to unfree systems.

    When I bought my hardware, I just looked for really supported ones. Besides accelerated fast 3D graphics cards[1], this *is* possible right now. My wifi card for example is an rt2500 and works well with GPL-only drivers! Most of the time, its worth throwing away the old (Windows-only) stuff and buy new hardware for 20-50 € than spending literally *days *, trying to get binary blobs working (and dealing with mysterious errors on a regularly basis). Unfree (user space) software is not nice, too but not nearly as bad as binary kernel drivers!

    I agree with Jakob Petsovits that disappointed OpenSuse users which care about free software should switch to Debian or Fedora instead of Ubuntu.

    [1] To change this, one has to support the Open Graphics Projects.

  46. Marco "daemon" Michna says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:40 pm

    This is such a poor try to get contributors of openSUSE to ubuntu!

  47. Sam Franks says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:52 pm

    Anything to make Linux easier and usefull for the average computer user would be more than helpfull.
    It seems that if the Linux distro out of the box suits your needs good.
    But to add anything or change anything -lots of luck.
    For people with time or programming skills ok but the average user needs simple functionality if Linux is to grow over the standard Microsoft Windows.

  48. peter says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 1:53 pm

    I agree with you George, most people mixes free and privative software. That is, unless you are a taliban of FLOSS (and we all are sometimes, you know, it’s about freedom not price). But the thing here is the chance to choose if you want the blob or not. If it is installed by default, then you are hurting free counterparts. If you want to get things done and have a distribution for humans, it may be right to you, but it is a Bad Thing for the community.

    In my humble opinion, the installation of the privative blobs could be made so easy it could be an installation option and/or a big and easy desktop icon available by default. Then people who wants them doesn’t have too much trouble with it. Now it looks like if you don’t want them you will have to deinstall those drivers after ubuntu installation to replace with free drivers or move to Debian. And there are a lot of Debian discs being burned right now.

  49. muszek says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 2:52 pm

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I said I do understand why compromises are made. In fact, I use ATI proprietary drivers myself… but there’s quite a big difference between having them installed by default and having to do it myself. In a latter case, manufacturer faces a stronger dilemma, since many more users will not be able to use full capabilities of graphic cards (thus making them overpriced in comparison to those products of those manufacturers that do provide open source drivers).

  50. Grozdan says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 3:00 pm

    Mark, get real here man, just because Novell did a deal with MS doesn’t mean that the openSUSE devs should abandon ship and join you’re lame distro. Remember, openSUSE is a community project and the devs still have the final word on what goes in and what not. Oh… wait, JBoss, which is now part of Red Hat also has a deal with MS, maybe you should start bashing on Red Hat too.

    I’d say you first go fix you’re 64-bit support and get rid of the blobs in the kernel, before bashing on a distro like openSUSE which is strongly against of including blobs. Ubuntu is for kiddies, Fedora, Debian and openSUSE are for real men. I had much better experience with those distros than with yours.

    And what’s this attitude of “Ubuntu for human beings” ??? Are all other Linux distros for aliens or what?

  51. mathew says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 3:40 pm

    So, when will Ubuntu be removing the dependency on Mono from ubuntu-desktop?

  52. mathew says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 3:42 pm

    Oh, and to answer George Fragos: I only buy hardware that has 100% free open source drivers. My laptop is running entirely on open drivers, and so is my home server.

  53. Jonathan says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:07 pm

    Come on Mark, this whole “Invitation” thing sucks. Going over and posting on another project’s mailing list to try and steal developers is not what I’d call good behavior. Actually, I’d call it trolling. If any OpenSuse devs don’t support the Novel/Microsoft deal, I’m sure they’ll be smart enough to leave on their own. Those who don’t care will stay.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like Ubuntu and appreciate all you’ve done for it until now. I just don’t think this was a very good decision.

  54. Lesley Clayton says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:24 pm

    I had been thinking about this very same dynamic which has been created by Microsoft and Novell and thought it was just a matter of time before it happened. I believe that competition can be played out in a way that is elegant without being immoral and stabbing people in the back!

    In an everchanging IT environment it is important to always have situational awareness and to aim for AGILITY so when the time does come for an aerial dogfight then we are ready to be intelligently tactical and decisive – out think, out manoeuvre, out evolve! This situation could play out into the communities hands – the upheaval creates an energy which strongly binds people when on the defensive to protect their rights and beliefs, great support is created and the momentum can be used to take us forward!

    A SHAKING also comes before an AWAKENING!

  55. Scott says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 4:45 pm

    I only sense a touch of swooping..:-) I have to admit Mark that it is a good idea to take advantage of situations and get more talented developers for the ‘buntu distro’s but..

    Then again it could have the affect of bringing the SuSE developers together as well, whitch is what they really need to do. Either way, I think you are doing the right thing. Good developers are always a welcome addition no matter what route they took to get there.

  56. Francisco says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 5:28 pm

    Mark, please remember that all linux applications are at danger because of the microsoft-novell deal, not just if you use Suse.

    Remember that Ubuntu 6.10 ships with gnome 2.16, which includes Mono, which is developed by Novell.

    IMHO your efforts should focus on making Novell back out of the deal instead of recruiting their developers.

  57. Blog IFTS » Blog Archive » Shuttleworth, papà di Ubuntu, chiama a sé gli sviluppatori OpenSuSe says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 5:41 pm

    [...] Dopo lo storico accordo MS-Novell(proprietaria di SuSe linux), Mark Shuttleworth chiama a raccolta gli sviluppatori delusi da tale accordo, e lo fa in questo post sul suo blog. [...]

  58. Riot777 says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 7:17 pm

    There are two types of Linux users, the ideological type, like GNU momenet symphatics and there are typical users. Ubuntu developers need to find a compromise that gonna be fair for both of them. Today using Linux without non-free software like multimedia codecs, drivers, firmware etc. is not impossible but it’s hard for sure if you are not using your PC only for writing text files. I think good solution of this problem is just to give users a possibility to choose if they wan’t to add this software during the installation process or not.

  59. Dmitry Mityugov says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 8:43 pm

    Novell+MS… Nobody says that this deal was INTENTIONALLY inked at this very moment to FORCE guys who create GPL 3 to make the license incompatible with this deal and with all similar deals in the future and in the past. The time is perfect, the consequences can be foreseen only by companies with big wallets. Is Canonical one of them?

  60. Tim Patterson says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 9:19 pm

    I was a long time SuSE user and, as of late a bug tester for 10.1, SLED 10, and 10.2 alpha/beta. I was very disappointed after watching the webcast with Ballmer/Hovsepian. As a matter of conscience I replaced SuSE on all of my systems with the best alternative (personally speaking) Debian.

    I’m not alarmed at all by Mark’s invitation. I suspect that there are a number of openSUSE developers and maintaniers who are planning a move. Why not try to steer them to Ubuntu?

    As far as proprietary drivers go, I use them when necesary. The purists who choose to attack distributors which choose to include them and users who choose to use them just don’t get it. YES I would like to see harware manufacturers open up the specs and will continue to call for this. However, I need to get work done. If it means using binary-only drivers until they become open (especially on the laptops) then so be it. People who constantly try to shame others for using proprietary drivers may as well be saying ‘live without functionality until it’s done our way or go use Windows’. In my mind these are the same distasteful people who rudely confront newbies looking for help with RTFM. These people do more harm than good IMHO.

  61. A SUSE le sale un novio nuevo… ¿con qué intenciones? « Esto es buena cosa… says: (permalink)
    November 25th, 2006 at 10:02 pm

    [...] Y claro, cuando uno va a casa ajena y dice ese tipo de cosas, sean o no verdad, escuece. Primero, porque no es lo que se espera que alguien haga de esa forma. Segundo porque habiendo escrito ese mismo mensaje en su blog, haciendo la misma invitación, ya tenía bastante. Y por último, porque en todos sitios cuecen habas (más información sobre las habas). Y sobre el escozor que decía, ha faltado tiempo para que en la lista se lean respuestas de este estilo: [...]

  62. dude says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 12:34 am

    I’m do not like what MS doing.They proven their evil nature.Imho Novell did mistake dealing with these evils.Looks like MS just wanted to destabilize Open Source world and somewhat acheived it.Now Novell who is one of major players will go on it’s own since nobody will trust ‘em too much.And this will be somewhat loss for FOSS community.Actually I doubt Novell will gain much but they’re surely in loss since nobody trusts them anymore.Actually, Novell’s management was always incompetent enough to fail even when techincal side was great.Maybe yet another case where Novell has failed.Yes, they did it again.

  63. Dave says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 1:46 am

    The ability of some to make the agreement between M$/Novel seem like a ‘purity’ war turns my stomach. It’s bad enough to see the fanboys turning this into some kind of Open Source holy war, without someone of the stature of Mr. Shuttleworth providing them ammo and support. Articles like these WILL cause me to discount Ubuntu, and the fine work those behind it do, if only because of their inclinations to seem ‘holier than thou’. Bleh.

  64. johnsie says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 2:01 am

    Please don’t start a war between Linux communities. We all use the same software appplications and work as part of a team to make those programs better. Causing division will only benefit Microsoft ahead of the release of Vista. Linux communities need to work together so that the software we share improves, not provoke each other and so that we can make an impact against bug #1.

  65. Me pronuncio 2 at mi blogocosa particular says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 3:03 am

    [...] Pero esto no es importante, a mi modo de ver, lo fundamental es la jugada de Mark Shuttleworth. MS, cuyas iniciales recuerdan al mismo demonio, ha conseguido sacar a la luz lo amargados que están en Novell montando un revuelo tremendo que pueden seguir en la barra lateral del enlace anterior (felicitar a la comunidad openSUSE por la presentación de las listas de correo, muy muy buena). [...]

  66. No, Mark! Bad Mark! « The Blog says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 4:13 am

    [...] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81 [...]

  67. Matt Lee says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 4:14 am

    George: It’s not about a GPL run system, just a system that comprises of only free software. Right now, the only distribution that I know of that does this is gNewSense, which is based on Ubuntu. Debian offers some binary blobs, for example.

    Jakob: I agree, but I don’t think any binary drivers are acceptable. Wireless cards that work with free drivers are very very cheap, and I’ve had them working since Debian Woody, so they’re not a new thing.

  68. rpgmaker says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 4:18 am

    When I read about this post on mark’s blog I couldn’t believe it, he just isn’t the mark we are used to…

  69. Dan Graham says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 6:23 am

    Cut Mark some slack, he has gone out on a limb to try and salvage something from the train wreck that is Novel. Extending an invitation is considered polite in some quarters. Given the likely future of Open Suse “DEAD”, (not my opinion just the rest of the community). It might be nice for them to know that the rest of us do not hold them accountable for Novels actions and that all their work on Open Suse was not in vain.

    And folks, keep up the outstanding work on the buntu’s especially Kubuntu :)

    Thanx and all the best, D

  70. Ilya Krylov says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 6:28 am

    Hey Mark!

    Please don’t turn on the proprietary drivers by default in the newest version of Ubuntu. Why harm and alienate a great amount of developers and OSS devotees away from this nice distribution? i know it’s an EXTREMELY temting decision to do so, but…. there are BETTER options like:

    1. Respect everybody and make the proprietary drivers an installation option. Let the final users decide whether to use them. It is so simple to code.

    2. Not include them at all but make it easy to download once the system is set up (see OpenSUSE)

    Both options are better.

    While I am writing to your blog, may I also suggest you finally make the new and improved naming convention for the Ubuntu family, like

    1) Ubuntu G – for gnome
    2) Ubuntu K – for KDE
    3) Ubuntu X – for XFCE

    This way, KDE people like me won’t think that KDE is just a wrapper on Ubuntu G core.

    Let’s have one core and different letters for different desktop managers.

    Best regards,
    CEO NSI group of companies
    Ilya Krylov

  71. Victor B. Gonzalez says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 7:07 am

    I believe I don’t know much about the Novell/Microsoft deal though I’ve read dozens of articles on the topic. nothing is clear what-so-ever where that deal is going. About binary drivers making it into Linux and by default, well, without binary drivers by default, none of my machines would be able to connect to the net by default. I think binary drivers are a necessary evil. Truth is, why not ship a completely free X/K/Ubuntu DVD or CD with Nvidia/ATI retail packages? I am sure a deal can be worked out. I believe the binary deal is not entirely as bad as some make it out to be… my 2 cents…

  72. Dave says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 7:23 am

    I wholeheartedly agree that I would prefer everything on my desktop to be open-sourced and free, not just as in beer, but also as in speech. I’ll settle for the next best thing, however (just free beer) when I don’t have much choice in the issue. ATI drivers spring to mind, but there are other obvious ones.

    People have had issues with Linus Torvolds on differing ideas of freedom, to which his retort was basically that he would just choose the best solution for the task at hand. I agree with that too — at the end of the day, as nice as it would be to use the opensource ATI drivers, which don’t crash out and give me trouble when switching to a VT, I can’t play quake on that. Yes, quake. Something else on my system that isn’t GPL’d. So what?

    I think that people need to fully read and comprehend what Mark has been posting: not a stab in the back to anyone, but rather an open hand to anyone who may feel that they have already been stabbed in the back by two large corporations who, once again, look out rather for themselves than their communities.

    Honestly — do you think that Microsoft cares about the future of GNU/Linux (except that they are threatened by it)? Do you think that Novell really does either? Or do you think that they, like most companies, care about one thing: the bottom line. How much money can be made, and how quickly. That *has* to be the focus of any company wishing to make money.

    I believe that Mark is just offering an alternate path to anyone from a group of respected developers who may also feel the ground shaking as the powers that be toss around large sums of money and fuzzy terminology. Not only do I believe that, but it seems rather obvious, if you actually bother to read to the bottom of the posting to the OpenSuSE mail list.

    I think that Ubuntu, and the machines behind that machine, have done more for GNU/Linux than a lot of people recognise — and in a very short time period as well. I think that this open hand that he offers is truly in good spirit, and needs to be taken as such. If you’re an OpenSuSE developer, and you’re offended at the offer, or even an Ubuntu developer, offended at the offer (or just taking offense on behalf of one of those parties), then perhaps you need to look at the light in which the offer was extended, and the outcome that I believe Mark was looking for: that rather than good developers feeling uncertain about things and quitting altogether, they should know that they have a place they can go to to continue with their fine contributions to GNU/Linux as a whole, should they feel it necessary.

  73. Richard Hawk says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 7:41 am

    wouldn’t it be better style to just wait and see what will happen with the deal rather than trying to pull best of the breed on your side. Speaking of open source sounds ironic to me in a distro which has to admit that proprietary drivers are needed and will be integrated in future distros.
    We does everyone mix opensuse with sled ? It is like mixing fedora with redhat.

    I once had a ubuntu live cd for a backup in case the novell ms deals turns out bad.
    Seems i have to look for some other replacement cause what you just do is just as questionable as the novell ms deal. And have you really read what i wrote mister Shuttleworth ? It is a Novell MS deal, not an opensuse MS deal !

    Thanks for making it even easier for me to stick with the opensuse bunch of developers.

    Yours
    Richard Hawk

  74. Vacancies for openSUSE developers @Ubuntu are Open « Linux and Open Source Blog says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 8:25 am

    [...] This letter, or as he calls it an invitation, has been publiched @Mark Shuttleworth blog and announced on the opensuse mailing lists…. the idea behind as I see is plain and simple: to get users away from openSUSE! [...]

  75. Vincent says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 8:56 am

    I have no objection to the inclusion of proprietary drivers in Ubuntu (or Xubuntu, for that part). What I do object to is that members of the open source community, and then especially such a highly respected one, help spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Of course it is controversial! Surely those who do not agree to this deal can make up for themselves that they perhaps want to switch to another distribution? Isn’t is better to try to convince Windows/Mac/Other-proprietary-OS users to switch to (Ubuntu) Linux, than to get your users and developers from other open source projects?

    IMHO it would’ve been better if you’d just try to attract attention to the Ubuntu Open Week from everyone, especially those who as of yet are not involved in the development of any open source projects. This way, you’re only diverting attention away from the Ubuntu Open Week.

    You are still greatly appreciated by me, just a little less ;)

  76. jc-denton says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 11:52 am

    Great idea to capitalize the Novell/Ms deal! I think that a lot of open source projects have a serious problem with software patents (Just think of GPU drivers under Linux), so probably the Novell/Ms deal will make it worse.

    I also think that Ubuntu should include proprietary drivers, since you need them anyway to make your wireless lan, gpu work. Also I think Ubuntu should include proprietary software that is freely distributable (like skype, acroread)

    I also like that Ubuntu is getting better with every release. ;-)

  77. suelz0mat.de » Ubuntu sucht OpenSUSE-Entwickler says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 1:04 pm

    [...] In seinem Blog sprich Mark Shuttleworth OpenSUSE-Entwickler direkt an, an der kommenden Ubuntu Open Week teil zunehmen. Trickreich geht der Gründer von Ubuntu vor, indem er die Ängste der Entwickler anspricht, die vielleicht durch den Pakt zwischen Novell und Microsoft geschührt wurden. Mal schauen was dabei raus kommt. Persönlich gefallen mir beide Distributionen, obwohl sie unterschiedlicher nicht sein könnten [...]

  78. karl-tux-stadt.de says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 1:09 pm

    Angebot vom Weltraumtouri…

    Mark Shuttleworth, lädt in seinem Blog die Developer von OpenSUSE, die sich wegen dem Pakt zwischen Novell und MS Sorgen machen zur UbuntuOpenWeek ein. Die UbuntuOpenWeek ist “for people who want to join the Ubuntu community”. Jetzt wi…

  79. Fedora-Blog.de » Blog Archive » Shuttleworth versucht OpenSouse Entwickler abzuwerben says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 3:03 pm

    [...] In seinem Blog bietet der Ubuntu Gründer Mark Shuttleworth alle OpenSuse Entwickler, die sich über die Konsequenzen des Patentabkommens zwischen Microsoft und Novell gedanken machen, einen Blick auf Ubunut zu werfen und an der Ubuntu Open Week teilzunehmen. [...]

  80. Tomás Pollak says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    Torvalds is right about always using the best solution. I agree that Ubuntu should include proprietary drivers from ATI & Nvidia (considering that most modern ATI’s aren’t supported by the “radeon” driver), however, they should never be enabled by default.

    Users should have the possibility of adding propietary packages during the Ubuntu installation if they want to, but only after being warned and accepting the terms and conditions of doing so. That way a newbie could have video, MP3 or Flash support from scratch, on first boot; and at the same time, Ubuntu wouldn’t be including propietary software by default.

    I really think this is the best solution. We can keep Ubuntu 100% free and at the same time we can make things easier for new Linux users.

  81. Tim says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 6:01 pm

    I’d like to see those complaining about proprietary firmware/drivers respond with a pledge to personally fund the development of open source hardware/drivers. Put your money where your mouth is please. You act like your rights are being violated. Its not about them, its about us. We created this situation. Companies are just companies doing business. If you want something, make it happen. My opinion is that if “Linux” (catchall) does not soon attract serious commercial and proprietary interest, it will be relegated to the server room and you can forget a UNIX-like desktop environment (except perhaps MacOS). Using the hardware you purchased to its fullest is important, as is having certain complex applications that are never likely to be written by volunteers. Linux gains have been due to better engineering and better development process at the kernel level. The proprietary OS vendors have not been standing still however. If Linux has to play catchup with increasingly better Apple and MS products, it will never gain a foothold. I hope that does not happen, but I consider it a real possibility.

  82. Michael Dolan Dot Com: Linux, Law, Open Source » Ubuntu Courting OpenSUSE Developers? says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    [...] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81   [...]

  83. Ubuntu-blogi » Arkisto » Uutisia ja lainauksia, viikko 47 says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 10:32 pm

    [...] “Mark Shuttleworth: Welcome OpenSUSE developers!” http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81 [...]

  84. fish says: (permalink)
    November 26th, 2006 at 10:40 pm

    That e-mail was a very stupid thing to do Mark…sigh.

  85. Erich Jansen says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 12:25 am

    I still don’t know what to think about the Novell/MS deal. I am confident that Novell is doing this with the hope that it will in some way benefit the Linux community. I still remember Steve Ballmers comments where he equated the open-source community to a bunch of communists. I have my doubts about Microsofts intentions.

  86. Cet says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 1:03 am

    Thank you Mark, you helped a lot of people. I wish there would be more man like you.

  87. Tassilo says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 1:04 am

    Yes, this was a really really stupid thing to do. You blame OpenSuSE developers for what they do…. for making things work together…. I mean – where is the humanity you’re so proud of ? If they don’t want to help Novell they will go somewhere else, if not, they try to get things done. You, without even knowing technical details, you just rant, you insult them, you wan’t to seperate two camps, you want to live some pseudo-ideologies, but on the other hand, you just accept blobs, for instance… Where’s the ideology there ? Just because you want to watch a shitty video on your brand new graphics card suddenly gives you the right to activate them in the default install. Fuck, I mean YOU have the most popular distribution, YOU have the power to bug the vendors to open their stuff, and YOU just don’t give a shit about that. The OpenBSD developers, for instance, always start some sort of campaign, they fight way more often for their rights, and they have a lot of success with it although they aren’t numerous compared to the linux folks. And well…. just because you want the fucking comfort, you dump your ideologies, but on the other hand you blame open source developers trying to make something work, to make it better, to communicate, to get together. Why don’t you tell them to wear a yellow star? I really did love your project in the beginning, but slowly, the only thing that is left is your attitude to represent yourself like a messiah of humanity, and hey, you just fucking failed. If you continue that way, I would suggest to change the name of your distribution – it just doesn’t fit anymore.

  88. Cet says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 1:18 am

    And by the way: Do not care too much about obviously envy people!

  89. Michael says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 4:25 am

    I am glad to see a discussion of Mark’s comments – and thank Mark for the forum to do so.

    I am one of the multitudes that have celebrated the milestone’s that the hard work and dedication of you and those programmers and developers that have made linux an operating system for those of us interested in computers and understanding them. I admit my clicking on those Paypal Donate banners and answering board posts is the extent of my assistance to the effort.

    I bought a new Inspiron laptop ( and may be due a refund on the OS … ) and had to used the Intel supplied driver to get my wireless to work. If there was a EULA, I clicked through it. Thanks Intel for the free ( at least as in beer ) driver that allows me to use my free Ubuntu powered Mepis distro to connect to the relatively free internet – Its good to be me …

    After burning ISOs for my friends and relatives, then found out that Mark would send not only copies of Ubuntu and also in regular packages that those I am, dare I say, trying to convert; it sure doesn’t appear to me that Mark is making money on this. It seems a concrete manifestation of ” I am what I am because of what we all are ” and a demonstration of how true responsibility translates into true benefit to the community.

    Watching the Microsoft – Novell ” agreement ” and subsequent fallout, together with my past experience as a home user and business administrator with Microsoft products, I can’t help but think that “indemnifying against future litigation ” was not undertaken with my interests at heart, and echoed of the silly SCO FUD, which only ends up taking steam away from adoption of linux on the corporate desktop

    ” OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact”

  90. Michael says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 4:50 am

    I am glad to see a discussion of Mark’s comments – and thank Mark for the forum to do so.

    I am one of the multitudes that have celebrated the milestone’s that the hard work and dedication of you and those programmers and developers that have made linux an operating system for those of us interested in computers and understanding them. I admit my clicking on those Paypal Donate banners and answering board posts is the extent of my assistance to the effort.

    I bought a new Inspiron laptop ( and may be due a refund on the OS … ) and had to used the Intel supplied driver to get my wireless to work. If there was a EULA, I clicked through it. Thanks Intel for the free ( at least as in beer ) driver that allows me to use my free Ubuntu powered Mepis distro to connect to the relatively free internet – life is good …

    After burning ISOs for my friends and relatives, then found out that Mark would send not only copies of Ubuntu and also in regular packages that those I am, dare I say, trying to convert,; it sure doesn’t appear to me that Mark is making money on this. It seems a concrete manifestation of ” I am what I am because of what we all are ” and a demonstration of how true responsibility translates into true benefit to the community.

    Watching the Microsoft – Novell ” agreement ” and subsequent fallout, together with my past experience as a home user and business administrator with Microsoft products, I can’t help but think that “indemnifying against future litigation ” was not undertaken with my interests at heart, and echoed of the silly SCO FUD. Again, this only ends up taking steam away from adoption of linux on the corporate desktop and generally worry those wondering about making the move to linux and again Microsoft is found lurking in the background ….

    Microsoft is due mass props for getting many of us into home and office productivity, but that contribution does not entitle it to screw up the efforts of others to that same goal.

    Bottom line – do I believe Mark’s or Microsoft’s intentions? Based on my limited experience of 20 years or so, gotta go with Mark.

    So when he offers to the ” OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact”, an opportunity to join his team, yeah I think it is a shot at the Microsoft – Novell “agreement”. More importantly though is recognizing the contributions of those individuals while offering an option for their ongoing involvement in the the spirit of the work that drew them to begin with. Just an option folks, not trying to maneuver them into a legal corner, as would some organizations.

    See the wave in the stadium of Ubuntu users Mark – thanks

  91. Mark says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 6:40 am

    It’s really sad that Mark is trying to appeal to an extremist ideology that is not held by the vast majority of open source developers. It’s also worth pointing out that the so-called “open source community” tends to be its own worse enemy. Once again, we have someone trying to divide people along some pseudo-ideology that doesn’t quite fly in the real world.

    Some of us at the office have been using Ubuntu as a desktop system since the betas, and we always thought Mark and the Ubuntu community had a proper, pragmatic perspective on open source. Apparently we were wrong, and because of that, I’ll be directing our IT department to go with Novell Linux for our next tech-support roll-out. Since our migration from OS/2 a decade ago, we’ve been aware of, and have distanced ourselves from extremists in the “free software” world. We’re aware of the divide in the open source and “free software” camps, and have recognized that “free software” ideology tends to be an exclusionary ideology that we want to avoid.

    I challenge the open source community to take back the real meaning of “free software”, as it was 25 years ago, and reject the ideology of extremism.

  92. znik says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 8:36 am

    I don’t belive what Novell sad. I think, it’d be better, developers help other Linux distributions, because aliance with Microsoft is the first step to try kill GPL. I belive, it’s only try because GPL is not killeable :) If Novell want, let hi with MS support Suse without free developers help.

  93. Saad Javed says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 9:07 am

    Mr. Shuttleworth,

    I’m an end-user of your wonderful OS. And I must say such an ill-advised post does NOT befit you or look good on Ubuntu itself.

    I’ve also read some of the criticism on this…Much of it is justified but some is undeserved. I hope you learn from this fiasco. May Allah give you strength to get through this with your head high…and guide you in your decisions.

    Ma’asalammah!

  94. Francisco Manas says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 10:02 am

    I’m not developer, but, i support to include the propietary drivers, ubuntu is linux for human begins.

  95. Theo Schmidt says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 10:15 am

    These are classic conflicts between “fundamentalist” and “realist” role models, which cannot be “solved”, but must continue to be discussed. There are reasons and times and places for both. But please be polite. The language and anologies used by Tassilo in a Nov 27th message cannot be tolerated.

  96. handy says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 10:35 am

    Mark,

    First off thanks for Ubuntu.

    Tough job you have there, having to handle these irreconcilable attitudes & philosophies.

    Varying from those that are totaly focussed on their own desires, to those that are fundamentalist’s of OSS & the GPL. Many reasons why people become fundamentalists, some admirable, other’s selfish…

    I don’t think it is healthy to take ourselves too seriously.

    All the best, keep fighting the good fight Mark.

    handy

  97. Hernan says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 1:28 pm

    As a Human being i support the inclusion of proprietary drivers, thanks a lot for Ubuntu.

  98. Gerd says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    I remember that Suse financially and morally supported the anti-software patents campaign in Europe, in very early stages. RedHat spent a lot of money, mysql invested in lobbying. But was has Ubuntu done in that field? Patent insurances or indemnification deals are no solution. It is nice that it is acknowledged but you have to develop constructive alternatives.

    So my advice to enterpreneurs it: Sign a social contract to invest 5% of the money you spent on patent indemnification, licensing, opposition procedures and other patent deals in software patent lobbying and the problem will be gone on a worldwide scale within the next few years.

  99. Gnusci says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 6:28 pm

    I do understand Mark, actually I think many of the developer must feel betrayed but they don’t wanna say a word because they love OpenSUSE… I just wonder till then they will resist the to be worker of MS under the secrets agreement of Novel…???, Can you guys be the first Linux-Mutants…..????

    Gnusci…

    Never make a calculation until you know the answer!

  100. Desarolladores de OpenSUSE: ¡Uníos a Ubuntu! - FayerWayer says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 7:27 pm

    [...] Link: Welcome, OpenSUSE developers! (Vía OSNews) [...]

  101. Mark Shuttleworth Entices OpenSUSE Developers at Tech Tonic says: (permalink)
    November 27th, 2006 at 8:48 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth is trying to entice OpenSUSE developers to join Ubuntu. “Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week.” [...]

  102. zetetic says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 4:32 am

    I agree with Marks invitation, but I can’t accept the inclusion of binary driver by default. So Mark’s invitation only makes sense if he refrains from including the binary drivers by default.

    Also the inclusion of binary drivers by default would be a gross violation of Ubuntu principles and philosophy. Let’s see why:

    Ubuntu distro says:
    Quote:
    «Ubuntu is entirely committed to the principles of open source software development; no part of it will ever be proprietary, and we encourage people to use it, improve it and pass it on.»

    So, what part of «no part of it will ever be proprietary” mr Mark doesn’t understand?

    The inclusion of the binary drivers would be lieying to Ubuntu users, would be a fraude!

    And those are the kind of attitudes one expects from Microsoft, not from Mark or Ubuntu.

    regards, zetettic

  103. nbjayme says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 7:03 am

    I see no problem with Mark Shuttleworth inviting developers of OpenSuse.

    Nobody was coerced nor threatened.

    He is presenting them an opportunity that was taken away by the Novell-Microsoft deal to FOSS OpenSuse developers – that is, the right to create income stream from the contributions they made.

    It’s not Suse vs. Ubuntu. It’s about community and ecology. This is about everybody having a home in FOSS.

    ;)

  104. Lunatic says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 9:11 am

    Well…this is a good feat from Mark to lure the confused developers of open suse. But I would rather call this a smart and intelligent move. We all know about the evil assosiated with Microsoft for ages, very soon its going to come up with IP related case on Linux users as its shipping lots of utilities on Mono which is heavly patented indirectly from Novell.

    Foss comunity should look into new emerging era Free Sun Java and should adapt it to the defacto…..

  105. Fresqui.com says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 12:59 pm

    Bienvenidos, desarrolladores OpenSUSE…

    Aprovechando la mala fama que le provocó a SUSE el acuerdo entre Novell y Microsoft en la comunidad Open Source, Mark Shuttleworth mandó un mail a la lista de correo de OpenSUSE, invitando a los programadores a unirse al equipo de Ubuntu.
    “La decis…

  106. Rich Jeffery says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 3:40 pm

    I’m really, really sorry to say this Mark, but as I temptee to Ubuntu I’ve now been put off by your statement.

    Ubuntu is in no way free anymore – your inclusion of non-OSS packages in the general distribution is actually exactly the opposite from openSUSE, who offer it as an extra. What you’ve talked about regarding ‘switching’ is complete blarney and ‘sales pitch’-speak. You don’t care about openSUSE developers. You only care about yourself and the glee factor you’d get from stealing coders from other projects.

    Also, despite it having the backing and funding from Novell, I have decided I’m sticking to openSUSE, but at least they are being true to themselves.

  107. free software advocate says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 10:49 pm

    Funny you’re saying “I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors”. I too find disrespectfull to X.org/kernel hacker’s work to provide non-free binary drivers enabled by default for the sake of bling.

  108. Carlos Correia says: (permalink)
    November 28th, 2006 at 11:19 pm

    I’m a BIG fan of Free Software (so far, ALL the software I’ve developed has been publised under GPL or LGPL licenses)!

    That said, I have to admit that, in the REAL WORLD (I mean both homes and enterprises), there is, indeed, the need to use some closed source applications, drivers an so on!

    The end user, usally, doesn’t care about the license, just want the damn system to work smoothly and, if it’s free (as in beer), much better, otherwise they will just try to get a copy from a friend and use it (yes, even in big corporations!).

    It’s a pitty that there are so many ones who try to change the world by obliging the others to behave in the “right” way (i.e., the way they feel it’s right). Hitler, Stalin and Mao, among other, tried that and failed (fortunally, I think).

    Why not simply distribute the proprietary code in a ‘tainted’ repository (so that all can figure which software is free and which is not) and then let the users decide which to use? If you continue to force the “Joe user” to search in the net for unofficial repositories, you’re doing exactly what Microsoft (and others) will like you to do: make it difficult (or even impossible) for the average user to use Linux.

    I do think that the way to go is to include all the software (mainly the drivers!) that one can legaly include in a distro and let the user decide which to use! It’s much more simple to the geeks to comment a line in ‘sources.list’, that it is for my mother to add one just to get the damn wireless card to work.

    Think about it ;-)

  109. E5 - Un Blog Boliviano Sobre Tecnología - » Archivo del weblog » Desarolladores de OpenSUSE ¡Uníos a Ubuntu! says: (permalink)
    November 29th, 2006 at 12:22 am

    [...] Link: Welcome, OpenSUSE developers! (Vía OSNews) [...]

  110. Ubuntu@MacVillage » Offene Woche bei Ubuntu says: (permalink)
    November 29th, 2006 at 1:46 pm

    [...] Heute gibt es zum Beispiel um 18 Uhr UTC (also 19 Uhr in Deutschland) eine offene Diskussion über die umstrittene Einladung von Mark Shuttleworth an die OpenSUSE-Entwickler. In der Einladung lud er jeden OpenSUSE-Entwickler, der Bedenken bezüglich des Deals von Novell mit Microsoft hat, ein, sich für Ubuntu zu engagieren. Dies löste eine kontroverse Diskussion aus, die heute höchstwahrscheinlich ihren Höhepunkt (und hoffentlich auch ihren Schlusspunkt) finden wird. Um neuen Community-Mitgliedern den Einstieg zu erleichtern, wird es am 1. Dezember eine offene Fragerunde, den »Freshers Day« geben, in der erfahrene Ubuntunutzer und -entwickler ihr Wissen den Neuzugängen weitergeben. Der Freshers Day sowie alle anderen Vorträge werden im Internet Relay Chat (IRC) abgehalten. Weitere Infos und die komplette Übersicht der Vorträge sind im Ubuntu-Wiki zu finden. Wer einen Vortrag verpasst, kann sich auch nachträglich die Logs der Vorträge durchlesen. Dennis Dirdjaja Gespeichert in: Ubuntu [...]

  111. grilix says: (permalink)
    November 30th, 2006 at 8:19 pm

    sorry but, ubuntu sucks… SuSE roks !!

  112. james says: (permalink)
    November 30th, 2006 at 10:23 pm

    all those who are surprised by this haven’t been paying attention lately. All those accusing people who oppose binary only kernel modules of hypocrisy because of ‘non-free’ hardware and firmware are setting up a straw man. We pay for the hardware (and anything that gets loaded on it), there is no requirement for that to be open source. Just the software that runs as part of the operating system needs to be open source.

    mark et al would tell you that they apply ‘market pressure’ to vendors with closed binary only drivers but this is a fable. By incorporating more and more non-free blobs into the kernel and elsewhere they are enabling those vendors to ignore the calls to open source their hardware specifications since their hardware now ‘runs on linux’.

    Feel free to try and call me a hypocrite on this issue, I run OpenBSD.

  113. Casper Labuschagne says: (permalink)
    December 1st, 2006 at 2:28 pm

    So many sad arguments…

    I have been using Ubuntu linux for 14 months now, been a Windows users since version 3.0 came out, DOS since 1985 and I had been a CP/M user before that. Until Ubuntu Linux came along I could not get rid of Windows entirely. Ubuntu Linux has been the first Linux distro (and I have been using Linux since 1995) that have allowed me to actually use Linux as opposed to tinkering with config files all day.

    The point is that USER CONVENIENCE is paramount. This is 2006, there is no such thing as the “Lone Ranger” anymore. Open Source is great, but it has to live hand-in-hand with registered intellectual property. That is why binary (closed) drivers MUST be included for convenience.

    As an end-user, I do not appreciate the hassle and incovenience that the “Open Source Zealots” impose on me. It is a nightmare – most of my current Linux problems comes from trying to integrate “Business Standard Solutions” into my PC. I am talking about Flash, RealPlayer, Quicktime, Skype, USB-2, KQEMU, Logitech hardware and various off-the-shelf printers. All those packages/products/drivers are freely available, but because of the moralistic stance taken by the “Zealots” end users are faced with severe technical hurdles to integrate those products in Linux when the solution could have been so easy. This is not acceptable to me.

    For Linux, the road to success lies in conquering the end-user desktops one by one. And creating something that is very difficult to integrate into the “real world” end-user computing experience is not the way to conquer new desktops. IMHO the stance of the “Open Source Zealots” is causing more direct harm to the wide-based acceptance of Linux than the current Microsoft – Novell agreement.

    Not that I trust Microsoft, but Novell will ultimately pay the price for their errors, not Linux!

  114. Patrick G Horneker says: (permalink)
    December 5th, 2006 at 3:38 am

    I have been using Linux since December 1998, and have been online since January 1996. (I came to the world of Linux from the world of OS/2.) What you are doing for the world is a great thing.

    The Cybernightlife project started as an OS/2 support site back in July 1996, and has evolved into a Linux support site with emphasis on the home and small business markets.

    Your distribution, along with its derivatives such as MEPIS, are best suited for home and small business use.

    While the Novell deal with Microsoft may have benefits, history has shown that Microsoft simply cannot be trusted, with much of the supporting evidence presented in the antitrust case of 1998.

    While Microsoft may have some good products, it is their business practices that are very questionable at best, especially from the point of view of customer service and satisfaction.

    Having tried various distributions, I can see why your distribution is ranked the best.

    Keep up the good work.

  115. Luis Villa’s Blog » quick thoughts on novell, blogs as journalism, etc. says: (permalink)
    December 5th, 2006 at 11:52 pm

    [...] That post is now the first google hit for ‘ubuntu patents’ and many variations thereof. I’m glad Mark apparently thought the issue was important enough to address in IRC, and I’m sorry that I’ve been too busy with exams to actually attend the IRC session. Hopefully Canonical will post something that clarifies the situation so that my post drops off Google’s radar in favor of something that is more official, less speculative, and less ambiguous. [...]

  116. hashlugradio » Season 4, Episode 7: I Listened To LugRadio By Mistake (ogg) says: (permalink)
    December 11th, 2006 at 11:03 am

    [...] and the matching blogpost [...]

  117. hashlugradio » Season 4, Episode 7: I Listened To LugRadio By Mistake says: (permalink)
    December 11th, 2006 at 11:03 am

    [...] and the matching blogpost [...]

  118. What Baby's! says: (permalink)
    December 13th, 2006 at 5:40 am

    What baby’s developers are, crying about Mark sending mail to the suse list. Sad thing is a lot of nerdy developers are exactly that, a bunch of troglodytes with no real world experience to flavor their development. All these comments here show that the linux community are a big bunch of babies! Yeah, I said it, and I have been using linux since uhm … 1997? There are a lot of things to stand for in life.. you might want to give your own self a chance to earn some wisdom and stop crying. Stop being a bunch of malignant sheep that jump on the bandwagon.. think for yourself .. you one track minded idiot.

  119. yomomma says: (permalink)
    December 13th, 2006 at 6:24 pm

    i think all the developers should accept the invitation and move away from suse,

    i hope novell dies quickly ,

    ubuntu rulz

  120. Commercial Open Source Software » Community development: from gift culture to “stealing” hackers says: (permalink)
    December 19th, 2006 at 1:38 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth has recently posted on his blog an invitation to OpenSuse developers to join the Ubuntu community, concluding that if you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do join us. [...]

  121. HP sees huge Linux desktop deals. Ubuntu where are you ? « Tuxicity’s source says: (permalink)
    March 8th, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    [...] Playfully attacking Novell on making deals is easy, but at least Novell has chances of getting on the Linux PC market, something I have not seen yet from Canonical. [...]

  122. Anand Muthu says: (permalink)
    April 4th, 2007 at 7:44 am

    Ubuntu needs to be packed with more *useful* packages :)

  123. ghostdog says: (permalink)
    May 16th, 2007 at 1:08 pm

    Just wanted to thank Novell for cutting a deal with M$, thus reinforcing their claims that Linux has infringed over 300 patents by paying royalties. Nice once Novell…….

  124. Marco says: (permalink)
    June 13th, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Some people complain because Ubuntu uses non-free drivers.
    I propose to these people to be more constructive: join and help the “High Priority Free Software Projects”, see
    http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/priority.html
    instead of complaining to Ubuntu.

  125. Mark’s (we)Blog » The Microsoft-Novell alliance - good, bad or ugly? says: (permalink)
    July 9th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    [...] Mark Shuttleworth’s latest reaction is neither hostile nor approving although he did earlier incite OpenSUSE developers to defect to Ubuntu and can now be quoted as saying: “We have declined to discuss any agreement with Microsoft [...]

  126. Camus SoNiCo » Post Topic » Novell / Microsoft agreements and events. says: (permalink)
    July 17th, 2007 at 3:42 am

    [...] After the deal, many hard critics came from the community. Some stated that Novell had sell out. Others, wanted to hold the community together by embracing the displeased developers. This was the case of Mark Shuttleworth. He sent an open invitation to OpenSUSE developers, to join the Ubuntu team. Part of the community, like me, saw this as a support to OpenSUSE developers and an opportunity for Ubuntu to add very valuable developers. Critics to this action came mostly from members of the Novell community. Their statement was that this invitation would only make OpenSUSE situation worst. I think that is an excellent point, but misses to see the importance of the invitation. It was intended to keep OpenSUSE developers, willing to leave Novell’s surroundings, inside the community. Mark Shuttleworth’s invitation. [...]

  127. Vacancies for openSUSE developers @Ubuntu are Open « alll about linux says: (permalink)
    July 28th, 2007 at 9:28 am

    [...] letter, or as he calls it an invitation, has been published @Mark Shuttleworth blog and announced on the opensuse mailing lists…. the idea behind as I see is plain and simple: [...]

  128. rich says: (permalink)
    August 28th, 2007 at 1:26 am

    Jumped into Ubuntu several months ago. I’m one of the poor people that wouldn’t ever be able to afford something this good. Much less have it delivered to his house in another country at that. So I just wanted to thank all those that have made my Ubuntu experience a pleasurable one. With that said I wanted to thank personally everyone from Mark to all the way on down to shipit.’s team in the mail room. Thanks !

  129. Boris Miller says: (permalink)
    September 22nd, 2007 at 8:40 am

    We would like to get hold of Mark Shuttleworth with regards to the tranport project that was published in the newspaper yesterday – we have been involved in this for the past 5 years and have great vision for the business but have not been able to get the finance – please can we send our business plan for perusal.
    Thanks very much,
    Boris Miller and Rob Louw

  130. Mighty Linuxz » Blog Archive » Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu) welcoming OpenSUSE developers says: (permalink)
    October 28th, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    [...] read more | digg story [...]

  131. 451 CAOS Theory » 451 CAOS Links - 2006.11.24 says: (permalink)
    April 14th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    [...] Welcome, OpenSUSE developers!, here be dragons, Mark Shuttleworth (Blog) [...]

  132. Community development: from gift culture to “stealing” hackers | Commercial Open Source Software says: (permalink)
    April 30th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    [...] Shuttleworth has recently posted on his blog an invitation to OpenSuse developers to join the Ubuntu community, concluding that if you have an interest in [...]

  133. Ubuntu vs OpenSUSE - Page 4 - openSUSE Forums says: (permalink)
    July 1st, 2009 at 6:06 am

    [...] did you use. but you can not change philosophy of distro. and when mark superhero write some post Mark Shuttleworth Blog Archive Welcome, OpenSUSE developers! i can not forget this, i am sure it is not worthy of human dignity, such a level(this is gg [...]

  134. SAP Global Survey: Simon Griffiths of South Africa — Global Neighbourhoods says: (permalink)
    July 15th, 2010 at 4:27 am

    [...] to technology. In this part of the world I know of very few people (eg, Phil Duff of SYSPRO and Mark Shuttleworth of Ubuntu fame) who appreciate how to create and use technology in a way that is applicable to the developing [...]

  135. Una mala invitación. Mark Shuttleworth tratando de atraer OpenSUSE Developers. | /home/muammar/blog says: (permalink)
    August 2nd, 2011 at 12:33 am

    [...] movimiento del contrario y obtener lo que se desea, y así son todas las acciones de Mark. Una mala invitación fué hecha por parte de Shuttleworth. Hoy leyendo en http://planet.debian.net me topé con la entrada de Josselin Mouette titulada [...]

  136. Una mala invitación. Mark Shuttleworth tratando de atraer OpenSUSE Developers. | muammar says: (permalink)
    August 15th, 2011 at 5:18 pm

    [...] movimiento del contrario y obtener lo que se desea, y así son todas las acciones de Mark. Una mala invitación fué hecha por parte de Shuttleworth. Hoy leyendo en http://planet.debian.net me topé con la entrada de Josselin Mouette titulada [...]